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Good thing. We don't need those (ugly power eating useless purpose) big buildings in our garden. If it were datacenters to cure cancer or something else meaning

Good thing. We don't need those (ugly power eating useless purpose) big buildings in our garden. If it were datacenters to cure cancer or something else meaningful then ok. But it's Facebook.

belval 5y ago
I get the sentiment, but it's not like the Netherlands don't use Facebook/Instagram/Whatsapp. There needs to be a data center to address those requests and it will be built somewhere. The NIMBY attitude is not really productive. Compare the DC to a landfill. Do you want one in "your garden"? Probably not, but it's not like you are going to convert to zero waste and render the project irrelevant.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  The Netherlands are one of the most densely settled areas in Europe and particularly prone to floods. Better to build a datacenter somewhere in Germany or France's rural regions - the real estate is cheaper.
  - openplatypus 5y ago
    > Better to build a data-center somewhere in Germany or France Hey hey, don't give them ideas. We don't want them here. Plus, given current European energy struggles, when Germany considers rationing power delivery, deploying Facebook space heaters sucking 200MW is not only irresponsible, but should be criminal.
    - hankman86 5y ago
      Make it a condition that they supply all their power through wind and solar on site. Can’t do it? Then no data centre for you.
      - lucb1e 5y ago
        And/or deliver that heat to residential buildings in winter. Didn't someone say gas is bad recently?
        mschuster91 5y ago
        That only works if the datacenter is built somewhere near residential units, and real estate that is near residential units is usually too expensive to build a large datacenter.
        lucb1e 5y ago
        I'm no energy engineer so I'm just going off what I randomly know: in Iceland they transport ~80°C water from a power plant off in the mountains (okay that makes it sound further than it really is) to Reykjavík and it loses only a few degrees along the way. Used for residential heating, hot water (it's potable but smells bad so they use heat exchangers), and even street heating against sleet. The distance is something like thirty minutes of driving on the highway if I remember correctly, so like 30km? While I see your point in general, also because servers are not typically put in oil or anything so this would be hot air (much less dense than water), I wonder if it's as simple as that. It's not like the Netherlands has spots where you are further than a handful of kilometers from the nearest buildings and, often, towns.
        MertsA 5y ago
        The datacenter in question was going to deliver residual heat to the community. Not really sure how well that works with a datacenter given the relatively low temperature exhaust air but yeah, you jest, but that was apparently the plan. https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-dutch-data-center/ https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-dutch-data-center/
  - googlryas 5y ago
    Yes the Netherlands is dense, but a vast majority of it is still open space. You can see by just looking at a satellite view of Zeewolde. It's almost entirely farmland.
    - murat124 5y ago
      Netherlands is only behind US in agricultural export because of those open spaces. Of course there's money to be made and latency improvement would be great for EU but if the usage of the land takes more from the locals and the peoples of importer countries than it gives then it's not worth it. Company being FB seems to be just making this argument stronger.
    - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
      Yes, let’s replace farmlands with data centres. We can eat server racks.
      - cookiengineer 5y ago
        Now I know why there's a world wide chip shortage! US people eating up all the chips!
      - googlryas 5y ago
        How big do you think these data centers are? There are ~80 square miles of farmland in Zeewolde. The largest data center in the world would take up less than .1% of that space. On top of that, the farmland isn't necessarily even growing food. They may be growing, say, tulips.
        rad_gruchalski 5y ago
        And your point is? Today it’s this data center, tomorrow it’s something else, then something else. That’s how it starts.
        googlryas 5y ago
  - consp 5y ago
    But you lack the peering to close by exchanges (AMS-IX, NL-IX).
- hankman86 5y ago
  Fair enough. I’d be OK if Facebook‘s data centres get scrutinised over their energy use, waste of land, etc. elsewhere as well. So yes, if other communities opt against new Facebook data centres then it’ll mean that their services perform worse. So what? Society would be better off if Facebook ceased to exist.
- trasz 5y ago
  The majority of Google or Facebook infrastructure runs stuff that’s at best useless to their users, and it can be argued that it’s actually harmful. I suspect there wouldn’t be a problem with data centers if they were used for stuff that’s useful.

Good thing. We don't need those (ugly power eating useless purpose) big buildings in our garden. If it were datacenters to cure cancer or something else meaningful then ok. But it's Facebook.

belval 5y ago

I get the sentiment, but it's not like the Netherlands don't use Facebook/Instagram/Whatsapp. There needs to be a data center to address those requests and it will be built somewhere. The NIMBY attitude is not really productive. Compare the DC to a landfill. Do you want one in "your garden"? Probably not, but it's not like you are going to convert to zero waste and render the project irrelevant.

mschuster91 5y ago
The Netherlands are one of the most densely settled areas in Europe and particularly prone to floods. Better to build a datacenter somewhere in Germany or France's rural regions - the real estate is cheaper.
- openplatypus 5y ago
  > Better to build a data-center somewhere in Germany or France Hey hey, don't give them ideas. We don't want them here. Plus, given current European energy struggles, when Germany considers rationing power delivery, deploying Facebook space heaters sucking 200MW is not only irresponsible, but should be criminal.
  - hankman86 5y ago
    Make it a condition that they supply all their power through wind and solar on site. Can’t do it? Then no data centre for you.
    - lucb1e 5y ago
      And/or deliver that heat to residential buildings in winter. Didn't someone say gas is bad recently?
      - mschuster91 5y ago
        That only works if the datacenter is built somewhere near residential units, and real estate that is near residential units is usually too expensive to build a large datacenter.
        lucb1e 5y ago
        I'm no energy engineer so I'm just going off what I randomly know: in Iceland they transport ~80°C water from a power plant off in the mountains (okay that makes it sound further than it really is) to Reykjavík and it loses only a few degrees along the way. Used for residential heating, hot water (it's potable but smells bad so they use heat exchangers), and even street heating against sleet. The distance is something like thirty minutes of driving on the highway if I remember correctly, so like 30km? While I see your point in general, also because servers are not typically put in oil or anything so this would be hot air (much less dense than water), I wonder if it's as simple as that. It's not like the Netherlands has spots where you are further than a handful of kilometers from the nearest buildings and, often, towns.
      - MertsA 5y ago
        The datacenter in question was going to deliver residual heat to the community. Not really sure how well that works with a datacenter given the relatively low temperature exhaust air but yeah, you jest, but that was apparently the plan. https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-dutch-data-center/ https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-dutch-data-center/
- googlryas 5y ago
  Yes the Netherlands is dense, but a vast majority of it is still open space. You can see by just looking at a satellite view of Zeewolde. It's almost entirely farmland.
  - murat124 5y ago
    Netherlands is only behind US in agricultural export because of those open spaces. Of course there's money to be made and latency improvement would be great for EU but if the usage of the land takes more from the locals and the peoples of importer countries than it gives then it's not worth it. Company being FB seems to be just making this argument stronger.
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    Yes, let’s replace farmlands with data centres. We can eat server racks.
    - cookiengineer 5y ago
      Now I know why there's a world wide chip shortage! US people eating up all the chips!
    - googlryas 5y ago
      How big do you think these data centers are? There are ~80 square miles of farmland in Zeewolde. The largest data center in the world would take up less than .1% of that space. On top of that, the farmland isn't necessarily even growing food. They may be growing, say, tulips.
      - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
        And your point is? Today it’s this data center, tomorrow it’s something else, then something else. That’s how it starts.
        googlryas 5y ago
- consp 5y ago
  But you lack the peering to close by exchanges (AMS-IX, NL-IX).
hankman86 5y ago
Fair enough. I’d be OK if Facebook‘s data centres get scrutinised over their energy use, waste of land, etc. elsewhere as well. So yes, if other communities opt against new Facebook data centres then it’ll mean that their services perform worse. So what? Society would be better off if Facebook ceased to exist.
trasz 5y ago
The majority of Google or Facebook infrastructure runs stuff that’s at best useless to their users, and it can be argued that it’s actually harmful. I suspect there wouldn’t be a problem with data centers if they were used for stuff that’s useful.