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Elucidate - your unfair advantages. Honestly at this point I am sick and tired of this dog-whistling nonsense. And when called out all of you losers act all inn

by N1H1L 5y ago

Elucidate - your unfair advantages. Honestly at this point I am sick and tired of this dog-whistling nonsense. And when called out all of you losers act all innocent about it. That shtick worked years back, but it's just plain racist in 2022 and it's well known. Get lost.

coolso 5y ago
Sorry but you can’t toxically gaslight me and most of the country into idly standing by in the current year while governmental policies continue to give foreign countries and non-Americans advantages over the American people. The age of globalism and outsourcing so corporations can sell out the American worker and consumer for a quick buck and a cheap disposable product made in a country with lax environmental laws and wasting fuel to ship it halfway across the world is coming to a close, and none of your extremely progressive zeitgeist accusatory and inflaming buzzwords can change that, no matter how many you attempt to cram into each paragraph. The unfair advantages (and scams and frauds that go hand in hand as well) are extensively documented and well known, which is why our big tech companies are so high on foreign nationals in the first place, and why their countries of origin love it as well. That being said this bill is an excellent step towards bringing jobs and manufacturing back to where they belong: the USA.
- N1H1L 5y ago
  What fair or unfair advantages? Nobody is toxically gaslighting you. Just pointing out that your assertions are fact free xenophobia.
jl2718 5y ago
Americans families pay taxes to universities. Then they pay tuition to universities. Then their children go to work to pay loans. Forever. Universities pay administrators to import labor for their government grants. Why are there so many foreign PhD students? Are Americans lazy? No; we have to work. Education is high-class leisure in America. Decades ago, Americans went back to school after paying off loans and getting experience. Not so anymore; the pipeline is too full to get back into it. This credentialism is being used to prove that Americans are unqualified to work in their own country. We should not be so impressed with PhDs. I assure you that a decade into this policy we won’t be.
- N1H1L 5y ago
  The total foreign STEM PhDs is 15,000 per year. Even if you add all of them together for the last decade, it won't even crack the top 50 largest places in the US. Your fact-free rants aside, what people forget is how few PhDs are there, actually. Let's take materials science; even the largest schools in the discipline do not even produce 30 PhDs per year. Less than 300 materials science PhDs graduate in total in the US per year; that's it. If all materials science PhDs ever granted in the US sit together (less than 30,000), they won't even fill a football stadium. And you can't just scale things up, equipment is multi-million dollars and it takes years to train good scientists. Nativist attitudes like yours leads to a company like ASML residing outside the US rather than inside. You want to dig your own country/communities' graves - go for it. Just don't expect kudos for doing harakiri.
  - jl2718 5y ago
    Correct; the programs can’t scale. Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. They can either give them to Americans or to foreign students. Hint: same with PhD employers. To be fair, I do understand the point of international competition for those slots, but that’s not directly aligned with the interests of the American middle class that pays the tuition and grant money to those schools. I don’t understand your ASML anecdote. The US has far more immigrant workers than any other country on earth. Is ASML avoiding us because that’s not enough? Are Taiwanese and Korean semiconductor industries failing due to their focus on citizen training and employment rather than labor imports?
    - bigbillheck 5y ago
      > Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. There were 55000 phds awarded in 2020, up from 40000 in 2000.
    - N1H1L 5y ago
      I don't think you are coming into this discussion with opinions based on facts because I do not believe you bothered searching for them. You already have preconceived ideas - US universities are running a gigantic coordinated conspiracy to lockout American nationals from science and hire only foreign nationals. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most STEM faculty are hyper-ambitious people who care about grant funding and their h-indexes above almost everything else. Secondly, the funding scenario makes it much easier to recruit US nationals over foreign citizens. Most US universities desperately want to hire US nationals for their doctoral programs; it's cheaper and more grants are available (as many DoD/DoE projects require US nationals due to export control restrictions). During my grad school days earlier in the last decade, almost all US citizen Ph.D. students were on some national fellowship, such as NSF, NDSEG, SCGSR, or EGRC. As a result, their stipends were $10,000 more than mine. And due to these fellowships, they were free for their Ph.D. advisors, while I cost my advisor $65,000 per annum. Despite these scholarships, that we have to admit so many foreign nationals paint the correct picture of the ground reality - the US doctoral STEM pipeline is really narrow. Part of this is plain numbers - India and China have 7-8 times more people than the US does. And in the college-going age, it's an even more significant gap, as the fertility rate in the US fell below the replacement level many decades back. The second factor is the cost of education in the US. However, it's screamed about more than it really is an issue. The largest STEM educators in the nation are all public schools, where in-state tuition rates are still reasonable, and a full degree costs less than $50,000. Still, college tuition is a significant problem, and we should solve it. At the very least, it will expand the pipeline quite a bit, but not, in my opinion, enough to fill the gap. Honest question - have you talked with any US universities' graduate program officers rather than spouting off Steve Bannon's conspiracies.? You think your points look smart, but I know what it is - uninformed ramblings since I know the ground reality. ASML and TSMC are running almost exclusively today by US trained people. The fact that the United States trained them and lost them - is a point of deep concern. And people like you will prolong this crisis through misguided xenophobia rather than contributing to a meaningful solution.

by N1H1L 5y ago

coolso 5y ago

Sorry but you can’t toxically gaslight me and most of the country into idly standing by in the current year while governmental policies continue to give foreign countries and non-Americans advantages over the American people. The age of globalism and outsourcing so corporations can sell out the American worker and consumer for a quick buck and a cheap disposable product made in a country with lax environmental laws and wasting fuel to ship it halfway across the world is coming to a close, and none of your extremely progressive zeitgeist accusatory and inflaming buzzwords can change that, no matter how many you attempt to cram into each paragraph. The unfair advantages (and scams and frauds that go hand in hand as well) are extensively documented and well known, which is why our big tech companies are so high on foreign nationals in the first place, and why their countries of origin love it as well. That being said this bill is an excellent step towards bringing jobs and manufacturing back to where they belong: the USA.

N1H1L 5y ago
What fair or unfair advantages? Nobody is toxically gaslighting you. Just pointing out that your assertions are fact free xenophobia.

jl2718 5y ago

Americans families pay taxes to universities. Then they pay tuition to universities. Then their children go to work to pay loans. Forever. Universities pay administrators to import labor for their government grants. Why are there so many foreign PhD students? Are Americans lazy? No; we have to work. Education is high-class leisure in America. Decades ago, Americans went back to school after paying off loans and getting experience. Not so anymore; the pipeline is too full to get back into it. This credentialism is being used to prove that Americans are unqualified to work in their own country. We should not be so impressed with PhDs. I assure you that a decade into this policy we won’t be.

N1H1L 5y ago
The total foreign STEM PhDs is 15,000 per year. Even if you add all of them together for the last decade, it won't even crack the top 50 largest places in the US. Your fact-free rants aside, what people forget is how few PhDs are there, actually. Let's take materials science; even the largest schools in the discipline do not even produce 30 PhDs per year. Less than 300 materials science PhDs graduate in total in the US per year; that's it. If all materials science PhDs ever granted in the US sit together (less than 30,000), they won't even fill a football stadium. And you can't just scale things up, equipment is multi-million dollars and it takes years to train good scientists. Nativist attitudes like yours leads to a company like ASML residing outside the US rather than inside. You want to dig your own country/communities' graves - go for it. Just don't expect kudos for doing harakiri.
- jl2718 5y ago
  Correct; the programs can’t scale. Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. They can either give them to Americans or to foreign students. Hint: same with PhD employers. To be fair, I do understand the point of international competition for those slots, but that’s not directly aligned with the interests of the American middle class that pays the tuition and grant money to those schools. I don’t understand your ASML anecdote. The US has far more immigrant workers than any other country on earth. Is ASML avoiding us because that’s not enough? Are Taiwanese and Korean semiconductor industries failing due to their focus on citizen training and employment rather than labor imports?
  - bigbillheck 5y ago
    > Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. There were 55000 phds awarded in 2020, up from 40000 in 2000.
  - N1H1L 5y ago
    I don't think you are coming into this discussion with opinions based on facts because I do not believe you bothered searching for them. You already have preconceived ideas - US universities are running a gigantic coordinated conspiracy to lockout American nationals from science and hire only foreign nationals. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most STEM faculty are hyper-ambitious people who care about grant funding and their h-indexes above almost everything else. Secondly, the funding scenario makes it much easier to recruit US nationals over foreign citizens. Most US universities desperately want to hire US nationals for their doctoral programs; it's cheaper and more grants are available (as many DoD/DoE projects require US nationals due to export control restrictions). During my grad school days earlier in the last decade, almost all US citizen Ph.D. students were on some national fellowship, such as NSF, NDSEG, SCGSR, or EGRC. As a result, their stipends were $10,000 more than mine. And due to these fellowships, they were free for their Ph.D. advisors, while I cost my advisor $65,000 per annum. Despite these scholarships, that we have to admit so many foreign nationals paint the correct picture of the ground reality - the US doctoral STEM pipeline is really narrow. Part of this is plain numbers - India and China have 7-8 times more people than the US does. And in the college-going age, it's an even more significant gap, as the fertility rate in the US fell below the replacement level many decades back. The second factor is the cost of education in the US. However, it's screamed about more than it really is an issue. The largest STEM educators in the nation are all public schools, where in-state tuition rates are still reasonable, and a full degree costs less than $50,000. Still, college tuition is a significant problem, and we should solve it. At the very least, it will expand the pipeline quite a bit, but not, in my opinion, enough to fill the gap. Honest question - have you talked with any US universities' graduate program officers rather than spouting off Steve Bannon's conspiracies.? You think your points look smart, but I know what it is - uninformed ramblings since I know the ground reality. ASML and TSMC are running almost exclusively today by US trained people. The fact that the United States trained them and lost them - is a point of deep concern. And people like you will prolong this crisis through misguided xenophobia rather than contributing to a meaningful solution.