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Google is dealing with a very real problem. There are bad actors, particularly internationally, who systematically and at scale try to subvert / cheat. This inc

Google is dealing with a very real problem. There are bad actors, particularly internationally, who systematically and at scale try to subvert / cheat. This includes multiple accounts, and businesses that hire folks who try to cheat the system. Google almost certainly has statistics supporting the increased risk of working with developers / businesses that hire folks who break various rules. Certainly there are false positives as well. A lot of folks are offended by $100 / year developer fees. If Apple et al charged $10,000 to get going as a developer, they would probably be better positioned to deal with all this less automatically. In fact, game dev historically might have followed a bit of this model (xbox etc). Anyways, my own thought, there should be a pathway to a $5,000 fee where you get a higher level of human interaction.

TuringNYC 5y ago
>> Google is dealing with a very real problem. There are bad actors, particularly internationally, who systematically and at scale try to subvert / cheat. I really dislike this explanation because there are so many obvious things they can do. Example: 1. Force uploads of Passport/ID for identity confirmation. If you have 100 accounts with the same passport...ok...issue, but if not, is it worth human review at least? 2. Force credit card payment with address verification, ideally match to passport. Same credit card used across 1000 accounts...ok...issue, but if not, perhaps worth a review at least? 3. Still an issue? Force user to pay $100 for verification and run credit check routine. The idea that blanket account terminations are the only way to handle issues seem lazy.
- saulrh 5y ago
  The solutions you suggest would prompt more outrage than anything Google does in this space today.
- 8note 5y ago
  Those are still secondary sanctions. Op wants to be able to hire somebody with a history of abuse without google enforcing them
  - solveit 5y ago
    OP wants to be able to hire somebody with a future of abuse because they're not psychic...
RexM 5y ago
> there should be a pathway to a $5,000 fee where you get a higher level of human interaction That sounds like extortion... "We're going to ban your account because we want to, unless of course you pay us $5,000 so you can talk to a human to resolve this issue."
- andybak 5y ago
  I agree but it would actually be better than the status quo. Would you rather have a neighbourhood mafioso who is amenable to financial incentives or a local random psychopath?
- tempnow987 5y ago
  This type of setup is routine in most real businesses. If you want to talk to a tech company engineer for bug fixes, you pay for that level of service. There is something a bit almost scammy about all these "businesses" demanding white glove custom treatment, but complaining loudly about even being asked to pay a one time $25 fee to get on platform. It used to be to deploy to a platform / get SDKs for the platform the costs were FAR higher. There are something like 5M+ android developers. If you want to support this developer pool with 2-3 hours of work per developer per year, you are looking at 15M hours of work per year. And these people also become a risk - they can be socially engineered, they can be paid off etc. We've seen this over and over again. If you look at phone co employees who are supposed to protect you from sim swap attacks etc, they have a large number of employees, so service is "good", but security? Not so much. What you are proposing is that google should offer a human service in a very adversarial and tricky area (ie, your own staff may be working against you) and that asking to get paid for that is "extortion" that would result in jail time. This is perhaps why they don't even offer a way to pay (a lot) for a very careful high level review. Folks like you would demand jail time for them. Instead we are stuck with automation.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Google love the extortion business model. "Bid more than your competitor on AdWords for the literal name of your business or else they'll get the customers who intended to do business with you."
bryans 5y ago
Even if Google were paying support engineers $100/hr, in what universe is the average developer going to need 50 hours of support per year? In reality, it's at most averaging to 2 hours, and typically only in situations where Google messed up and should really be fixing it for free anyway, because it was their mistake. So, at most, it would be a labor cost of $300/yr including benefits and taxes, and more realistically that number is much closer to $100/yr. And that's pretending they don't already make obscenely high profits per developer, and can absolutely afford to provide the necessary support for these situations, which again, are largely their mistakes to begin with.
- tempnow987 5y ago
  They charge a one time fee of $25 to get a developer account. They provide full SDK / tooling and other resources for that $25 fee. I don't know what universe android app developers are living in, this is basically "free" for most significant businesses. For that $25, you are NOT going to get white glove support / treatment. Not happening.
  - bryans 5y ago
    You are conveniently ignoring that developers create apps which are sold in Google's marketplace, of which Google takes a minimum of 15%. They are making more per developer than $25. Please take your inflammatory nonsense elsewhere.
    - account42 5y ago
      Not to mention that Android would be worth a lot less if there were no third-party apps for it.
xnx 5y ago
Exactly. I don't think people appreciate how actively all of Google's policies are being attacked and attempted to be circumvented. I'm very suspicious of any developer that claims total innocence.

TuringNYC 5y ago

>> Google is dealing with a very real problem. There are bad actors, particularly internationally, who systematically and at scale try to subvert / cheat. I really dislike this explanation because there are so many obvious things they can do. Example: 1. Force uploads of Passport/ID for identity confirmation. If you have 100 accounts with the same passport...ok...issue, but if not, is it worth human review at least? 2. Force credit card payment with address verification, ideally match to passport. Same credit card used across 1000 accounts...ok...issue, but if not, perhaps worth a review at least? 3. Still an issue? Force user to pay $100 for verification and run credit check routine. The idea that blanket account terminations are the only way to handle issues seem lazy.

saulrh 5y ago
The solutions you suggest would prompt more outrage than anything Google does in this space today.
8note 5y ago
Those are still secondary sanctions. Op wants to be able to hire somebody with a history of abuse without google enforcing them
- solveit 5y ago
  OP wants to be able to hire somebody with a future of abuse because they're not psychic...

RexM 5y ago

> there should be a pathway to a $5,000 fee where you get a higher level of human interaction That sounds like extortion... "We're going to ban your account because we want to, unless of course you pay us $5,000 so you can talk to a human to resolve this issue."

andybak 5y ago
I agree but it would actually be better than the status quo. Would you rather have a neighbourhood mafioso who is amenable to financial incentives or a local random psychopath?
tempnow987 5y ago
This type of setup is routine in most real businesses. If you want to talk to a tech company engineer for bug fixes, you pay for that level of service. There is something a bit almost scammy about all these "businesses" demanding white glove custom treatment, but complaining loudly about even being asked to pay a one time $25 fee to get on platform. It used to be to deploy to a platform / get SDKs for the platform the costs were FAR higher. There are something like 5M+ android developers. If you want to support this developer pool with 2-3 hours of work per developer per year, you are looking at 15M hours of work per year. And these people also become a risk - they can be socially engineered, they can be paid off etc. We've seen this over and over again. If you look at phone co employees who are supposed to protect you from sim swap attacks etc, they have a large number of employees, so service is "good", but security? Not so much. What you are proposing is that google should offer a human service in a very adversarial and tricky area (ie, your own staff may be working against you) and that asking to get paid for that is "extortion" that would result in jail time. This is perhaps why they don't even offer a way to pay (a lot) for a very careful high level review. Folks like you would demand jail time for them. Instead we are stuck with automation.
jessaustin 5y ago
Google love the extortion business model. "Bid more than your competitor on AdWords for the literal name of your business or else they'll get the customers who intended to do business with you."

bryans 5y ago

Even if Google were paying support engineers $100/hr, in what universe is the average developer going to need 50 hours of support per year? In reality, it's at most averaging to 2 hours, and typically only in situations where Google messed up and should really be fixing it for free anyway, because it was their mistake. So, at most, it would be a labor cost of $300/yr including benefits and taxes, and more realistically that number is much closer to $100/yr. And that's pretending they don't already make obscenely high profits per developer, and can absolutely afford to provide the necessary support for these situations, which again, are largely their mistakes to begin with.

tempnow987 5y ago
They charge a one time fee of $25 to get a developer account. They provide full SDK / tooling and other resources for that $25 fee. I don't know what universe android app developers are living in, this is basically "free" for most significant businesses. For that $25, you are NOT going to get white glove support / treatment. Not happening.
- bryans 5y ago
  You are conveniently ignoring that developers create apps which are sold in Google's marketplace, of which Google takes a minimum of 15%. They are making more per developer than $25. Please take your inflammatory nonsense elsewhere.
  - account42 5y ago
    Not to mention that Android would be worth a lot less if there were no third-party apps for it.

xnx 5y ago

Exactly. I don't think people appreciate how actively all of Google's policies are being attacked and attempted to be circumvented. I'm very suspicious of any developer that claims total innocence.