16 ms·

Unbundling Airbnb

134 points by peterfa 5y ago

nraynaud 5y ago
What’s funny is that in France we had various alternatives to Airbnb for so long before Airbnb that Americans are completely baffled by the choice when they learn of them. Actual upscale bnb? Gîtes de France. I’m coming with 20-30 friends -> gîtes pour groupes, you’ll get an industrial kitchen and dormitories. Those things existed long before the internet.
- mft_ 5y ago
  (As someone whose family has often hired gites for holidays) Airbnb just offers simplicity and centralisation over the previous offerings. Less regular gite-hirers might not know of the precise businesses to go to, to hire a gite. Taxis existed before Uber; but it was the app (handling location, real-time updates, and seamless payment) that changed things.
  - Ntrails 5y ago
    > Taxis existed before Uber; but it was the app (handling location, real-time updates, and seamless payment) that changed things. I disagree - the game changer vs previous minicab offerings is the centralisation. Instead of ringing 4 companies and being given different waiting times by each etc, a single source tells me (initially, before the inevitable split into lyft et al) what the next available cab time is. In the same way that early netflix felt like a game changer because I had loads of stuff in one place. A lot of the utility drains away as soon as competition appears again and you're back where you started.
    - gverrilla 5y ago
      In Brazil's delivery market what happened was first there was a company centralizing all delivery phones in a single phone number, but their web interface was very bad and there was no app. The company that went on to first centralize the whole thing using advanced user interfaces won, and eventually bought the first company.
  - rmellow 5y ago
    Let's not forget the value of a reputation system. Both parties have an incentive to be reasonable & avoid getting kicked out of the platform. Yeah, it's not perfect, and some bad actors abuse the rating system: "the driver wants me to wear a mask? I'll report him for unsafe driving" was one that I heard before. But ultimately, knowing there's a record of whose car I went into makes me feel safer than riding with an unvetted driver that no one else knows I'm with.
- philihp 5y ago
  One contributor to Airbnb's success was making things like this accessible to international travelers. It's that whole "live like a local" vibe.
  - dorchadas 5y ago
    "live like a local" while actively helping to destroy local communities. Such a great vibe!
    - geoduck14 5y ago
      It's the American dream!
    - dymk 5y ago
      Oh no! Xenophobia!
      - dorchadas 5y ago
        I take it you've never lived next to an AirBnB, or in a city that has housing issues in part because of AirBnB. It's horrible. I have friends who lived next to one for a while, and the noise at all hours of the night from guests who don't care because they'll be gone in a week was awful. Likewise, I currently live in a city where the housing supply doubled once AirBnBs were put back onto the long-term rental market during the pandemic. It's also a city with one of the worst housing crises in Europe. AirBnB directly harms the local people of a city, often causing rents to raise, rowdy neighbors who don't give a damn about quiet time, and forcing actual locals out of the city so tourists can feel "at home". Not to mention AirBnBs are not considered in urban planning the way hotels are, since they mostly exist in areas that are planned for residential (for, y'know, the residents of the city) use. It has nothing to do with xenophobia. Tourists are welcome, but can stay in hotels and stop taking up the housing supply of the areas they visit.
        j0ba 5y ago
        How is that the travelers' fault? It is the residents of the city themselves who are making the rentals available.
- mprev 5y ago
  I always disappointed there wasn't a site called GiteHub.
jdrc 5y ago
or you can up-bundle airbnb. I would like to be able to pick "2 years in <nice place>" as a package that includes everything from home to food/gym/car etc
- ackbar03 5y ago
  You mean real estate agent?
  - octoberfranklin 5y ago
    Never rent through a real estate agent. You're at a disadvantage, they're too good at screwing tenants. Look at it objectively: two people have to be able to make a profit off of you in this arrangement (the owner and their realtor) and both of those margins will be pretty fat since neither of them is a long-term employee of the other, like you'd see in an apartment complex with an on-site manager. Real estate agents are always on the landowner's side. Just accept this and the whole system will make more sense (this goes for buying or selling a house too).
    - throwaway744678 5y ago
      This has not been my experience as a renter and as an owner. The realtor's margins for renting are quite low, which means they try to make things as smooth as possible for everyone, to minimize their work: in particular, they try to get the house/apartment rented as soon as possible, to make as few visits as possible; the also have an interest in the tenant staying the longest time possible. As always, I guess it depends on your real estate agent, though!
    - ricardobayes 5y ago
      Yes, according to my experience the owners who actually care and will solve any issues are not using real estate agents. Only those who want to be 'hands off' do. It usually ends up not being a great experience for everyone involved.
      - 5y ago
throwra620 5y ago
mg 5y ago
Every time I travel, I spend insane amounts of time browsing AirBnB to find a suitable place. For example, I miss a "good table" option on AirBnB. I have to manually discard over 90% of the listings after looking at the images because there is no table suitable for work. That is so time-consuming. It's not that I want to work at home all the time, but still I need a proper table to put my laptop on. A proper chair and a monitor would be golden of course. And there are a bunch of additional things I do manually too. For example reading the reviews. Meanwhile, I am pretty good at predicting the quality of a place by reading the reviews. The stars are somewhat of an indication. But not reliable at all. I had really bad stays at places that got 100 reviews and an average of 4.7 stars. Hosts have too much influence on this metric. Here are two examples of positive signals that help me find nice places: 1) How long the reviews are. Hosts can remove bad reviews. And they can manipulate their guests into writing 5-star reviews. But they cannot really manipulate them to write long, enthusiastic reviews with many details. 2) How many of the reviews say "I have stayed at many AirBnBs and this one was one of the best". This is something I usually write when I particularly liked a place. And it turned out a good signal to find nice places. I often wonder if one could build a business by creating a site that lists a small subset of AirBnBs that are manually vetted like this. I already wrote my own web based tool to organize and sort AirBnBs that I am interested in. So it would not be a lot of work to make these lists public.
- postsantum 5y ago
  I think it could be implemented as a browser extension. 8/10 people found this property has a suitable workplace. The lenght of the average comment is 56% shorter than usual
  - mg 5y ago
    Where would the "8/10" number come from?
    - postsantum 5y ago
      From other users of this extension
darepublic 5y ago
assert(unbundle(bundle(airbnb)) == airbnb)
vlovich123 5y ago
I think I missed how the article’s initial premise is worked around by Wander. How is it avoiding competing with AirBnB unbundling itself (ie Luxe)? Isn’t that basically what the author says not to do? Is the only difference that Wander managed to acquire a large VC round?
- hnbad 5y ago
  The premise is that Wander is "10x better". Whether or not that is true is of course a matter of opinion, but as I'm not in the business of spending upwards of $1k a night on accomodation, I don't think I'm the target audience and thus in no position to make that judgement.
  - vlovich123 5y ago
    Sure, but the article is completely devoid of content to explain how Wander is 10x better. Almost reads like an advertisement for Wander without any actual content.
    - joelonhn 5y ago
      My understanding from the article is that unlike AirBnB, Wander actually purchases the homes - so they can kit out every property in their portfolio to meet their specific market.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Just point out one example of this that I think has been very successful, and that's MisterBnB for gay travelers. I think a lot of straight folks don't understand the mental calculus that goes through a gay person's mind when they travel. I'm at the stage of my life where when I go on vacation, I want to relax and feel at ease. Why would I spend money to go someplace where I may feel unwelcome, or worse, unsafe? For example, there are a few Caribbean nations that are beautiful, but notoriously unwelcoming to gays. Jamaica can have someone else's money. In an Airbnb, I don't think I've ever felt unsafe, but I'd also rather not feel unwelcome. I don't want to have to worry about some last minute thing coming up making the place unavailable if I mention my partner. With MisterBnB I know I never have to worry about that, and I know my sexuality won't rise to the level of anyone even caring. Even if that's true 80 percent of the time on Airbnb, I just don't want to have to deal with that 20 percent chance of having a bad experience.
- lom 5y ago
  Is that the reason for the LBTQ+ friendly tag you can add in google maps?
  - Spivak 5y ago
    Yeah, it's honestly really nice to see when businesses add it because I don't then have to worry about showing up and having that awkward "oh. uhh, okay. guess i'll leave" moment. The flip side is also sad but ultimately useful, I know to avoid shops that proudly display the Trump, Let's Go Brandon, Blue Lives Matter, Confederate Flag, Don't Tread on Me, the one weird flag that's like fuck Biden but written with guns, or honestly the American flag. And look, I completely agree with the stance "those don't necessarily imply homophobia," you can hate Biden and love the gays, you can love America and the gays, plenty of my conservative friends do, but the kind of person who flies the flags at their home or business is on a whole different level.
    - saimiam 5y ago
      As a legal alien who used to live in the States, I would avoid any establishment showing the American flag. It just felt like the place would be loudly and proudly nationalistic and as an alien, I would be more welcome elsewhere.
bilater 5y ago
I would gladly pay a premium for an Airbnb style home in my chosen location with an emphasis on month long stays for digital workers. This basically boils down to amenities like high speed WIFI + a comfortable office chair and desk. Airbnb's 'dedicated workspace' is a joke of a filter with hosts claiming a side table with a stool is one. Also there needs to be an in-unit laundry filter!

134 points by peterfa 5y ago

What’s funny is that in France we had various alternatives to Airbnb for so long before Airbnb that Americans are completely baffled by the choice when they learn of them. Actual upscale bnb? Gîtes de France. I’m coming with 20-30 friends -> gîtes pour groupes, you’ll get an industrial kitchen and dormitories. Those things existed long before the internet.

mft_ 5y ago
(As someone whose family has often hired gites for holidays) Airbnb just offers simplicity and centralisation over the previous offerings. Less regular gite-hirers might not know of the precise businesses to go to, to hire a gite. Taxis existed before Uber; but it was the app (handling location, real-time updates, and seamless payment) that changed things.
- Ntrails 5y ago
  > Taxis existed before Uber; but it was the app (handling location, real-time updates, and seamless payment) that changed things. I disagree - the game changer vs previous minicab offerings is the centralisation. Instead of ringing 4 companies and being given different waiting times by each etc, a single source tells me (initially, before the inevitable split into lyft et al) what the next available cab time is. In the same way that early netflix felt like a game changer because I had loads of stuff in one place. A lot of the utility drains away as soon as competition appears again and you're back where you started.
  - gverrilla 5y ago
    In Brazil's delivery market what happened was first there was a company centralizing all delivery phones in a single phone number, but their web interface was very bad and there was no app. The company that went on to first centralize the whole thing using advanced user interfaces won, and eventually bought the first company.
- rmellow 5y ago
  Let's not forget the value of a reputation system. Both parties have an incentive to be reasonable & avoid getting kicked out of the platform. Yeah, it's not perfect, and some bad actors abuse the rating system: "the driver wants me to wear a mask? I'll report him for unsafe driving" was one that I heard before. But ultimately, knowing there's a record of whose car I went into makes me feel safer than riding with an unvetted driver that no one else knows I'm with.
philihp 5y ago
One contributor to Airbnb's success was making things like this accessible to international travelers. It's that whole "live like a local" vibe.
- dorchadas 5y ago
  "live like a local" while actively helping to destroy local communities. Such a great vibe!
  - geoduck14 5y ago
    It's the American dream!
  - dymk 5y ago
    Oh no! Xenophobia!
    - dorchadas 5y ago
      I take it you've never lived next to an AirBnB, or in a city that has housing issues in part because of AirBnB. It's horrible. I have friends who lived next to one for a while, and the noise at all hours of the night from guests who don't care because they'll be gone in a week was awful. Likewise, I currently live in a city where the housing supply doubled once AirBnBs were put back onto the long-term rental market during the pandemic. It's also a city with one of the worst housing crises in Europe. AirBnB directly harms the local people of a city, often causing rents to raise, rowdy neighbors who don't give a damn about quiet time, and forcing actual locals out of the city so tourists can feel "at home". Not to mention AirBnBs are not considered in urban planning the way hotels are, since they mostly exist in areas that are planned for residential (for, y'know, the residents of the city) use. It has nothing to do with xenophobia. Tourists are welcome, but can stay in hotels and stop taking up the housing supply of the areas they visit.
      - j0ba 5y ago
        How is that the travelers' fault? It is the residents of the city themselves who are making the rentals available.
mprev 5y ago
I always disappointed there wasn't a site called GiteHub.

jdrc 5y ago

or you can up-bundle airbnb. I would like to be able to pick "2 years in <nice place>" as a package that includes everything from home to food/gym/car etc

ackbar03 5y ago
You mean real estate agent?
- octoberfranklin 5y ago
  Never rent through a real estate agent. You're at a disadvantage, they're too good at screwing tenants. Look at it objectively: two people have to be able to make a profit off of you in this arrangement (the owner and their realtor) and both of those margins will be pretty fat since neither of them is a long-term employee of the other, like you'd see in an apartment complex with an on-site manager. Real estate agents are always on the landowner's side. Just accept this and the whole system will make more sense (this goes for buying or selling a house too).
  - throwaway744678 5y ago
    This has not been my experience as a renter and as an owner. The realtor's margins for renting are quite low, which means they try to make things as smooth as possible for everyone, to minimize their work: in particular, they try to get the house/apartment rented as soon as possible, to make as few visits as possible; the also have an interest in the tenant staying the longest time possible. As always, I guess it depends on your real estate agent, though!
  - ricardobayes 5y ago
    Yes, according to my experience the owners who actually care and will solve any issues are not using real estate agents. Only those who want to be 'hands off' do. It usually ends up not being a great experience for everyone involved.
    - 5y ago

throwra620 5y ago

mg 5y ago

Every time I travel, I spend insane amounts of time browsing AirBnB to find a suitable place. For example, I miss a "good table" option on AirBnB. I have to manually discard over 90% of the listings after looking at the images because there is no table suitable for work. That is so time-consuming. It's not that I want to work at home all the time, but still I need a proper table to put my laptop on. A proper chair and a monitor would be golden of course. And there are a bunch of additional things I do manually too. For example reading the reviews. Meanwhile, I am pretty good at predicting the quality of a place by reading the reviews. The stars are somewhat of an indication. But not reliable at all. I had really bad stays at places that got 100 reviews and an average of 4.7 stars. Hosts have too much influence on this metric. Here are two examples of positive signals that help me find nice places: 1) How long the reviews are. Hosts can remove bad reviews. And they can manipulate their guests into writing 5-star reviews. But they cannot really manipulate them to write long, enthusiastic reviews with many details. 2) How many of the reviews say "I have stayed at many AirBnBs and this one was one of the best". This is something I usually write when I particularly liked a place. And it turned out a good signal to find nice places. I often wonder if one could build a business by creating a site that lists a small subset of AirBnBs that are manually vetted like this. I already wrote my own web based tool to organize and sort AirBnBs that I am interested in. So it would not be a lot of work to make these lists public.

postsantum 5y ago
I think it could be implemented as a browser extension. 8/10 people found this property has a suitable workplace. The lenght of the average comment is 56% shorter than usual
- mg 5y ago
  Where would the "8/10" number come from?
  - postsantum 5y ago
    From other users of this extension

darepublic 5y ago

assert(unbundle(bundle(airbnb)) == airbnb)

vlovich123 5y ago

I think I missed how the article’s initial premise is worked around by Wander. How is it avoiding competing with AirBnB unbundling itself (ie Luxe)? Isn’t that basically what the author says not to do? Is the only difference that Wander managed to acquire a large VC round?

hnbad 5y ago
The premise is that Wander is "10x better". Whether or not that is true is of course a matter of opinion, but as I'm not in the business of spending upwards of $1k a night on accomodation, I don't think I'm the target audience and thus in no position to make that judgement.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  Sure, but the article is completely devoid of content to explain how Wander is 10x better. Almost reads like an advertisement for Wander without any actual content.
  - joelonhn 5y ago
    My understanding from the article is that unlike AirBnB, Wander actually purchases the homes - so they can kit out every property in their portfolio to meet their specific market.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

Just point out one example of this that I think has been very successful, and that's MisterBnB for gay travelers. I think a lot of straight folks don't understand the mental calculus that goes through a gay person's mind when they travel. I'm at the stage of my life where when I go on vacation, I want to relax and feel at ease. Why would I spend money to go someplace where I may feel unwelcome, or worse, unsafe? For example, there are a few Caribbean nations that are beautiful, but notoriously unwelcoming to gays. Jamaica can have someone else's money. In an Airbnb, I don't think I've ever felt unsafe, but I'd also rather not feel unwelcome. I don't want to have to worry about some last minute thing coming up making the place unavailable if I mention my partner. With MisterBnB I know I never have to worry about that, and I know my sexuality won't rise to the level of anyone even caring. Even if that's true 80 percent of the time on Airbnb, I just don't want to have to deal with that 20 percent chance of having a bad experience.

lom 5y ago
Is that the reason for the LBTQ+ friendly tag you can add in google maps?
- Spivak 5y ago
  Yeah, it's honestly really nice to see when businesses add it because I don't then have to worry about showing up and having that awkward "oh. uhh, okay. guess i'll leave" moment. The flip side is also sad but ultimately useful, I know to avoid shops that proudly display the Trump, Let's Go Brandon, Blue Lives Matter, Confederate Flag, Don't Tread on Me, the one weird flag that's like fuck Biden but written with guns, or honestly the American flag. And look, I completely agree with the stance "those don't necessarily imply homophobia," you can hate Biden and love the gays, you can love America and the gays, plenty of my conservative friends do, but the kind of person who flies the flags at their home or business is on a whole different level.
  - saimiam 5y ago
    As a legal alien who used to live in the States, I would avoid any establishment showing the American flag. It just felt like the place would be loudly and proudly nationalistic and as an alien, I would be more welcome elsewhere.

bilater 5y ago

I would gladly pay a premium for an Airbnb style home in my chosen location with an emphasis on month long stays for digital workers. This basically boils down to amenities like high speed WIFI + a comfortable office chair and desk. Airbnb's 'dedicated workspace' is a joke of a filter with hosts claiming a side table with a stool is one. Also there needs to be an in-unit laundry filter!