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it's also a cultural thing. US commute is particularly bad, I work from home and been doing it on and off for the past 20 years. My commute has never been lon

it's also a cultural thing. US commute is particularly bad, I work from home and been doing it on and off for the past 20 years. My commute has never been longer than 20 minutes total. I now live 5 minutes walk away from my office, I'm not going, but if I had to I would walk there and have a very nice breakfast in some bar on the road there. One thing that's always overlooked is how much WFH is selecting people who already have a tendency to stay home and not socialize much at work. The majority of people are not like that, most people don't have the means (spare rooms, gear, technical abilities) to do it _and_ are marginalized for not being able to socialize in person, because they tend to lean towards depression by staying home all day. Also WFH tends to discriminate people doing "less important" jobs, like for example in a couple if one of the two has a highly paid job or a responsibility job, the other one will tend to be the one doing chores (cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids) while if both go out to work there's less pressure to compensate because both can't physically be home to do what need to be done anyway. There are studies showing that WFH makes gender inequalities worse. Basically the point is that many people find meaning and purpose in their jobs, if you remove the "purpose" (getting dressed, going out, meeting other people, sharing work experiences with them) it simply becomes a tedious activity to them that fulfills none of their needs.

fartcannon 5y ago
It'll be nice when the serf mentality of finding meaning in your job is finally gone from the world.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > when the serf mentality of finding meaning in your job is finally gone from the world Emperors, scientists and other productive members of the elite have done this since age immemorial. If anything, the average person finding their work meaningful (versus simply toil) is a recent phenomenon.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    We have a whole class of people who have finally been able to climb up Maslow's hierarchy high enough to now ask those questions.
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    Finding meaning in the labor you do is absolutely not connected to scale of said labor. It is easier finding meaning in your labor if your labor is directly creating or providing a meaningful service to your community. Do you see how I am not saying job? Because no one wants to do the same thing for 40 hours with surveillance. However finding meaning in labor has been a thing for millenia.
  - jdrc 5y ago
    Those are 0.001% of the population. Most people work because they have to
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Those are 0.001% of the population. Most people work because they have to That's the point. People finding or striving to find meaning in their work are far removed from the "serfs."
      - jdrc 5y ago
        ah . well that's also not true, nowadays there is a job market and toil is reserved for the working class / service class perhaps. Most people are middle or above class in modern societies
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  I think it's backwards: people find meaning in their jobs because it's their only activity (or is largely their main one) . To let it go for good we'd need people to make themselves entertain in different activities other than working. But mostly it's because (I think) it's activities they enjoy doing and actually have meaning in the real World, even if on a much smaller scale than the global one.
- vr46 5y ago
  The late Studs Terkel showed us all - 50 years ago - how work was a search for both "daily meaning and daily bread". The speed and efficiency credo of the modern age has restricted independence and creativity almost out of existence for millions - but far from this being a serf mentality - this was foisted upon people by others.
  - harlanlewis 5y ago
    I think you’re referring to his book Working. Tacking on a recommendation for it both for the subject at hand, as well as it just being an engaging look at daily life in the early 70s (which really feels like a different world in so many ways) told through engaging oral history.
    - vr46 5y ago
      I am indeed, it’s by the side of my bed right now as it happens, he was great at his work too!
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> it's also a cultural thing Good places to see this are New York and New Orleans. New Orleans' French and Spanish quarters have residences on top of business concerns. We Americans, on the other hand, built separate residential and commercial neighborhoods with a train connecting the two. Likewise for Manhattan. Dutch-settled areas have homes on top of shops. This pattern continues for a bit under the British, but converts to distinct residential and commercial streets before going whole hog on the pattern with non-commercial neighborhoods.
- packetlost 5y ago
  I'm not sure this is a cultural divide so much as a political city planning one, at least today. Mixed-use zoning is a debated topic in my city. That being said, I absolutely despise the separate residential/commercial zoning and how spread out things are here (mostly because of individual car-culture).
01100011 5y ago
> WFH is selecting people who already have a tendency to stay home and not socialize much at work. Doesn't engineering in general select for these personality traits?
- nobleach 5y ago
  This has been my observation over the last 20 years. I truly enjoy socializing and collaborating in person. I usually worked from home once or twice a week before the pandemic. It was a fantastic convenience as I lived an hour from my office. Once the pandemic hit we were fully remote. At first I thought, "see? we're more productive, this is truly better". As time wore on, I can see why a hybrid approach might be a better solution. I have never seen a more disengaged engineering staff. We gather weekly on Zoom for a general "shoot the breeze talk about tech" conversation and 95% of the cameras are off. Those folks are completely silent. That's their choice of course but it makes the work environment very lonely. I've tried to rile my team up to go into the office once in awhile for whiteboarding sessions/collaboration but they're simply not interested. So, perhaps your assumption is true. Engineers, for the most part, do not want to socialize, they simply want to do their work and get paid. The only problem I have here is, I feel our product suffers due to lack of collaboration.
  - otoburb 5y ago
    >>I feel our product suffers due to lack of collaboration. Is there a way to measure the loss in productivity or product quality? >>I have never seen a more disengaged engineering staff. How does the perceived lack of engagement by your team members (by choice, for the most part) impact the mystical, (un)measurable "collaboration" factor? It might help managers and/or senior leadership to better argue points for hybrid in-office arrangements if data points could be brought to bear to counteract the very real benefits (for some) of WFH combined with varying individual social preferences. The suggestions in the last paragraph of the article are so simple to articulate, yet difficult for (especially lder) managers across most levels to crisply quantify.
    - nobleach 5y ago
int0x2e 5y ago
WFH is also doing an amazing job to help people who would otherwise be marginalized. In particular, I've seen how remote interviews help people that are wheelchair bound or have subtle issues with their eye-sight (that are only noticeable up close) get through some of the hidden (or even unconscious) biases that still exist in all of us and end up screening-out some otherwise great candidates.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  On the subject of disabilities in tech, one of the best things for me about WFH is that I have a disorder which casues (among other things) light sensitivity issues and most offices have horrible lighting for triggering that. Being able to WFH where I have things set up to be comfortable as possible in this respect is an absolute godsend and I honestly wouldn't go back to the office even on a hybrid basis if my salary was tripled. I quit my last job over a mandatory return to the office, it's an absolute red line for me now when considering a role.
- throwaway684936 5y ago
  It's great for autistic people, especially those with sensory sensitivities. The interview process still sucks, though.
adamsmith143 5y ago
>Basically the point is that many people find meaning and purpose in their jobs, if you remove the "purpose" (getting dressed, going out, meeting other people, sharing work experiences with them) it simply becomes a tedious activity to them that fulfills none of their needs. If the only purpose you have in a job is to put on uncomfortable clothes and socialize I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > If the only purpose you have in a job is to put on uncomfortable clothes and socialize I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. if you remove the human aspect and insist on framing the issue like that, can't we say the same thing for almost any job? - If the only purpose you have in a job is to boost your ego and brag I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to chose the colors in an excel spreadsheet cells I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to do something a machine can do better I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to farm kind animals to later cruelly kill them I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to make money for yourself I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. ... not a great analysis if you ask me.
  - adamsmith143 5y ago
    >if you remove the human aspect and insist on framing the issue like that, can't we say the same thing for almost any job? - If the only purpose you have in a job is to boost your ego and brag I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to chose the colors in an excel spreadsheet cells I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to do something a machine can do better I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to farm kind animals to later cruelly kill them I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to make money for yourself I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. Well... yes, we should. The last one is obviously unreasonable since we live in a society where money is required to live most lifestyles. I recommend reading Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber: https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp/150114331X https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp...
sologoub 5y ago
> Also WFH tends to discriminate people doing "less important" jobs, You are mixing pandemic with WFH. When you work, you still need childcare and otherwise be working. Doing chores and house work during breaks is a nice “perk” that saves me time, but it must not come at the expense of the work itself, just like it would not with WFO. If anything, WFH has been more inclusive as many other comments have said, especially of people that don’t like direct “confrontation” of large meetings and “loudest first” prioritization. Video conf chat has become a valuable and documentable discussion medium that can include comment not urgent enough to interrupt the speaker in the moment, but still useful to the overall context. I hope some of these inclusive benefits are retained with hybrid or whatever approaches are utilized for work in the future. Another interesting inclusivity question is the location itself. People tend to congregate by common traits, so locating an office in a given neighborhood or city implicitly discriminates those groups who do not have a large presence nearby. Remote definitely allows (but importantly does not guarantee) a much more diverse employee population and greater fairness in access to these jobs. There are of course counter points with availability of working space and internet connection, so this is a very complex issue.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > You are mixing pandemic with WFH No, I am not. > oing chores and house work during breaks is a nice “perk” that saves me time, but it must not come at the expense of the work itself, just like it would not with WFO If people are home, they can be pressured to do more, because they literally have more time to do them and are literally physically available for exploitation. Simple as that. > If anything, WFH has been more inclusive as many other comments have said You are mixing self segregation with inclusiveness. > Video conf chat has become a valuable and documentable discussion medium that can include Only if you sell video chat software. Least path of resistance states that video chats pose less barriers, so you're making more of them and they end up lasting longer than before. It also enables more monitoring from management and the idea that workers are always available. (guess who's not saying no to the boss? the more vulnerable or the less vulnerable?) Again: it's been observed.
  - sologoub 5y ago
asdff 5y ago
Honestly the US commute is not even that bad. Avg transit commute in like Paris is 50 mins. Meanwhile even though Americans have to suffer in traffic or whatever (which imo seems better to have your own personal air conditioned bubble full of music than a cramped sweaty bus), avg commutes even in places like Houston that have the worst traffic out of anywhere are hardly over 30 mins.
- dsq 5y ago
  I have noticed that the 'American system' works best in - America, although copied all over the world. The cars, houses, gas prices, street width, availability and size of parking spaces, etc. are all optimal in the US. Even Canada, supposedly a US clone, has higher gas prices, less parking in the cities, and lower salaries and higher taxes (though less gun crime). Europe is even worse (again, in those parameters). So, if you are going for the US lifestyle, be in the US. Otherwise, stick with what is better where you are: public transport, walking, public healthcare to take pressure off sticking with car centric job, etc.
jghn 5y ago
> Also WFH tends to discriminate people doing "less important" jobs Anecdata but my partner and I have a huge income disparity. I'd say our responsibilities are pretty even. There are things I tend to do and they tend to do. But in my mind at least it evens out.

fartcannon 5y ago

It'll be nice when the serf mentality of finding meaning in your job is finally gone from the world.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> when the serf mentality of finding meaning in your job is finally gone from the world Emperors, scientists and other productive members of the elite have done this since age immemorial. If anything, the average person finding their work meaningful (versus simply toil) is a recent phenomenon.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  We have a whole class of people who have finally been able to climb up Maslow's hierarchy high enough to now ask those questions.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  Finding meaning in the labor you do is absolutely not connected to scale of said labor. It is easier finding meaning in your labor if your labor is directly creating or providing a meaningful service to your community. Do you see how I am not saying job? Because no one wants to do the same thing for 40 hours with surveillance. However finding meaning in labor has been a thing for millenia.
- jdrc 5y ago
  Those are 0.001% of the population. Most people work because they have to
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Those are 0.001% of the population. Most people work because they have to That's the point. People finding or striving to find meaning in their work are far removed from the "serfs."
    - jdrc 5y ago
      ah . well that's also not true, nowadays there is a job market and toil is reserved for the working class / service class perhaps. Most people are middle or above class in modern societies
peoplefromibiza 5y ago
I think it's backwards: people find meaning in their jobs because it's their only activity (or is largely their main one) . To let it go for good we'd need people to make themselves entertain in different activities other than working. But mostly it's because (I think) it's activities they enjoy doing and actually have meaning in the real World, even if on a much smaller scale than the global one.
vr46 5y ago
The late Studs Terkel showed us all - 50 years ago - how work was a search for both "daily meaning and daily bread". The speed and efficiency credo of the modern age has restricted independence and creativity almost out of existence for millions - but far from this being a serf mentality - this was foisted upon people by others.
- harlanlewis 5y ago
  I think you’re referring to his book Working. Tacking on a recommendation for it both for the subject at hand, as well as it just being an engaging look at daily life in the early 70s (which really feels like a different world in so many ways) told through engaging oral history.
  - vr46 5y ago
    I am indeed, it’s by the side of my bed right now as it happens, he was great at his work too!

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> it's also a cultural thing Good places to see this are New York and New Orleans. New Orleans' French and Spanish quarters have residences on top of business concerns. We Americans, on the other hand, built separate residential and commercial neighborhoods with a train connecting the two. Likewise for Manhattan. Dutch-settled areas have homes on top of shops. This pattern continues for a bit under the British, but converts to distinct residential and commercial streets before going whole hog on the pattern with non-commercial neighborhoods.

packetlost 5y ago
I'm not sure this is a cultural divide so much as a political city planning one, at least today. Mixed-use zoning is a debated topic in my city. That being said, I absolutely despise the separate residential/commercial zoning and how spread out things are here (mostly because of individual car-culture).

01100011 5y ago

> WFH is selecting people who already have a tendency to stay home and not socialize much at work. Doesn't engineering in general select for these personality traits?

nobleach 5y ago
This has been my observation over the last 20 years. I truly enjoy socializing and collaborating in person. I usually worked from home once or twice a week before the pandemic. It was a fantastic convenience as I lived an hour from my office. Once the pandemic hit we were fully remote. At first I thought, "see? we're more productive, this is truly better". As time wore on, I can see why a hybrid approach might be a better solution. I have never seen a more disengaged engineering staff. We gather weekly on Zoom for a general "shoot the breeze talk about tech" conversation and 95% of the cameras are off. Those folks are completely silent. That's their choice of course but it makes the work environment very lonely. I've tried to rile my team up to go into the office once in awhile for whiteboarding sessions/collaboration but they're simply not interested. So, perhaps your assumption is true. Engineers, for the most part, do not want to socialize, they simply want to do their work and get paid. The only problem I have here is, I feel our product suffers due to lack of collaboration.
- otoburb 5y ago
  >>I feel our product suffers due to lack of collaboration. Is there a way to measure the loss in productivity or product quality? >>I have never seen a more disengaged engineering staff. How does the perceived lack of engagement by your team members (by choice, for the most part) impact the mystical, (un)measurable "collaboration" factor? It might help managers and/or senior leadership to better argue points for hybrid in-office arrangements if data points could be brought to bear to counteract the very real benefits (for some) of WFH combined with varying individual social preferences. The suggestions in the last paragraph of the article are so simple to articulate, yet difficult for (especially lder) managers across most levels to crisply quantify.
  - nobleach 5y ago

int0x2e 5y ago

WFH is also doing an amazing job to help people who would otherwise be marginalized. In particular, I've seen how remote interviews help people that are wheelchair bound or have subtle issues with their eye-sight (that are only noticeable up close) get through some of the hidden (or even unconscious) biases that still exist in all of us and end up screening-out some otherwise great candidates.

BoxOfRain 5y ago
On the subject of disabilities in tech, one of the best things for me about WFH is that I have a disorder which casues (among other things) light sensitivity issues and most offices have horrible lighting for triggering that. Being able to WFH where I have things set up to be comfortable as possible in this respect is an absolute godsend and I honestly wouldn't go back to the office even on a hybrid basis if my salary was tripled. I quit my last job over a mandatory return to the office, it's an absolute red line for me now when considering a role.
throwaway684936 5y ago
It's great for autistic people, especially those with sensory sensitivities. The interview process still sucks, though.

adamsmith143 5y ago

>Basically the point is that many people find meaning and purpose in their jobs, if you remove the "purpose" (getting dressed, going out, meeting other people, sharing work experiences with them) it simply becomes a tedious activity to them that fulfills none of their needs. If the only purpose you have in a job is to put on uncomfortable clothes and socialize I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> If the only purpose you have in a job is to put on uncomfortable clothes and socialize I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. if you remove the human aspect and insist on framing the issue like that, can't we say the same thing for almost any job? - If the only purpose you have in a job is to boost your ego and brag I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to chose the colors in an excel spreadsheet cells I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to do something a machine can do better I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to farm kind animals to later cruelly kill them I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to make money for yourself I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. ... not a great analysis if you ask me.
- adamsmith143 5y ago
  >if you remove the human aspect and insist on framing the issue like that, can't we say the same thing for almost any job? - If the only purpose you have in a job is to boost your ego and brag I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to chose the colors in an excel spreadsheet cells I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to do something a machine can do better I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to farm kind animals to later cruelly kill them I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. - If the only purpose you have in a job is to make money for yourself I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job. Well... yes, we should. The last one is obviously unreasonable since we live in a society where money is required to live most lifestyles. I recommend reading Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber: https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp/150114331X https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp...

sologoub 5y ago

> Also WFH tends to discriminate people doing "less important" jobs, You are mixing pandemic with WFH. When you work, you still need childcare and otherwise be working. Doing chores and house work during breaks is a nice “perk” that saves me time, but it must not come at the expense of the work itself, just like it would not with WFO. If anything, WFH has been more inclusive as many other comments have said, especially of people that don’t like direct “confrontation” of large meetings and “loudest first” prioritization. Video conf chat has become a valuable and documentable discussion medium that can include comment not urgent enough to interrupt the speaker in the moment, but still useful to the overall context. I hope some of these inclusive benefits are retained with hybrid or whatever approaches are utilized for work in the future. Another interesting inclusivity question is the location itself. People tend to congregate by common traits, so locating an office in a given neighborhood or city implicitly discriminates those groups who do not have a large presence nearby. Remote definitely allows (but importantly does not guarantee) a much more diverse employee population and greater fairness in access to these jobs. There are of course counter points with availability of working space and internet connection, so this is a very complex issue.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> You are mixing pandemic with WFH No, I am not. > oing chores and house work during breaks is a nice “perk” that saves me time, but it must not come at the expense of the work itself, just like it would not with WFO If people are home, they can be pressured to do more, because they literally have more time to do them and are literally physically available for exploitation. Simple as that. > If anything, WFH has been more inclusive as many other comments have said You are mixing self segregation with inclusiveness. > Video conf chat has become a valuable and documentable discussion medium that can include Only if you sell video chat software. Least path of resistance states that video chats pose less barriers, so you're making more of them and they end up lasting longer than before. It also enables more monitoring from management and the idea that workers are always available. (guess who's not saying no to the boss? the more vulnerable or the less vulnerable?) Again: it's been observed.
- sologoub 5y ago

asdff 5y ago

Honestly the US commute is not even that bad. Avg transit commute in like Paris is 50 mins. Meanwhile even though Americans have to suffer in traffic or whatever (which imo seems better to have your own personal air conditioned bubble full of music than a cramped sweaty bus), avg commutes even in places like Houston that have the worst traffic out of anywhere are hardly over 30 mins.

dsq 5y ago
I have noticed that the 'American system' works best in - America, although copied all over the world. The cars, houses, gas prices, street width, availability and size of parking spaces, etc. are all optimal in the US. Even Canada, supposedly a US clone, has higher gas prices, less parking in the cities, and lower salaries and higher taxes (though less gun crime). Europe is even worse (again, in those parameters). So, if you are going for the US lifestyle, be in the US. Otherwise, stick with what is better where you are: public transport, walking, public healthcare to take pressure off sticking with car centric job, etc.

jghn 5y ago

> Also WFH tends to discriminate people doing "less important" jobs Anecdata but my partner and I have a huge income disparity. I'd say our responsibilities are pretty even. There are things I tend to do and they tend to do. But in my mind at least it evens out.