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I have a cynical view about this, but also expect it all to come out in the wash over time. My cynical view is that some older executives are, indeed, not as e

I have a cynical view about this, but also expect it all to come out in the wash over time. My cynical view is that some older executives are, indeed, not as effective in remote companies and younger ones, because they have no practice running remote companies and haven't adapted. Additionally, many senior and middle managers never figured out how to assess and reward actual productivity on their teams, so relied on their ability to schmooze to create a veneer of contributing, and schmoozing is easier to do in person. Finally, managing facilities is a big job, especially at bigger companies, and few executives are going to point out that their main job functions are now outdated and the company should de-invest. Imagine being an executive who is overseeing the capital costs of real estate development for a very large tech campus as an extreme example. However, it is also my view that remote work-forces are inherently more efficient in multiple ways for many industries. I have been working from home and managing remote teams since 2008. Every time I go to an office I am absolutely shocked by how much time is wasted in an office. Time that could be spent exercising, doing laundry, gardening, so many things that are beneficial to someone's health and work productivity. I believe that market forces will solve these problems of ineffective execs and managers. I could imagine some specific companies making a co-located office their competitive advantage by appealing to the minority of knowledge workers who prefer working that way, though.

xtracto 5y ago
In my previous job, my boss (CEO) did not "believe" in remote work. He pushed so hard for everyone to be in the office during 2020 that there were several covid outbreaks in the office. The punchline is that we had offices both in California and Mexico... and I was specially hired to open and maintain the office in Mexico. I flew several times a year to Cali (thankful) but I just couldn't make him see that covid or no covid we would have to make remote work , because I was working remotely for him. I ended up leaving for a 2x salary position and fully remote job.
- soapboxrocket 5y ago
  When COVID broke out I was working with a manufacturing company, helping to fix their PMO. One of the big issues they had was that the only way to get parts through the factory was for the PMs to go down to the shop floor and constantly babysit and move them; the primary directive from management was "the PMs should not be going to the shop floor." Perfect! So COVID hits and I suggest we send the PMs home to work since they are only at their desks working on their computers and talking with customers. Corporate VP: "But if we send them home how will we know if they are working?" Me: "How do you know they are working now?" Of course the most ironic part was that VP was on the phone calling in from home because he lived in a different state that had no business operations in his area. Not surprising to me, that company has since shut down.
boringg 5y ago
I would say the benefit of schmoozing (which i dont like) is information sharing about the organization. One thing thats particularly hard in large remote companies if information sharing outside of rigid structure (ie 1 on 1, meetings). Much needed even if some of it isnt great info. And yeah i would say your take is pretty cynical and pretty ageist -> diminutive to someone for their ability to contribute is reduced greatly by using their age as a proxy.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  I don't think "schmoozing" is necessarily information sharing. It can be, but more often than not it's simply "socializing, but with the goal of career benefit rather than friendship". Hanging out at the water cooler, golfing with other execs, having an extended lunch at the bar, doing "one on ones" where you don't talk that much about work, walking the hallways for the simple purpose of looking busy to everyone else. These are all schmoozing. Having a hallway conversation with one person where you pass on critical business information isn't really schmoozing, but it is harmful to the overall organization.
  - boringg 5y ago
    Completely disagree with you. Sometimes hallway conversations make you realize what other parts of the company is actually doing.
josephd79 5y ago
This
bearjaws 5y ago
> My cynical view is that some older executives are, indeed, not as effective in remote companies and younger ones At the beginning of the pandemic, all our "boomer" leadership couldn't even properly share their screen on zoom. We then switched to Teams, and they couldn't figure that out either. I actually in a one on one suggested all of senior leadership should take a class on remote work, and Teams, because 90% of the friction was actually self created. HR loved the idea, but guess what? They never took it. Meanwhile, software engineers are expected to learn 5 new things every month. It really has created a riff where pretty much everyone in engineering has no respect for our senior leadership. This further undermines the return to the office because its clear as day: Remote work doesn't work for THEM, but it does for the rest of the organization. I do agree that this will all die out due to market forces, younger companies are going to force the hands of incumbents and slower moving organizations.
- greedo 5y ago
  Two years into the pandemic, we still have executives who can't be bothered to learn something as simple as how to mute their microphones during a Teams meeting. I think it's a subconscious reaction to the idea of them being muted. In a normal meeting, no one would ever think to mute them since they're so high on the food chain.
  - wokwokwok 5y ago
    I think there's a deeper, wider systemic issue here. People think they'll get better at remote working by a) being bad at it, b) putting no effort into getting better at it and c) doing it a lot. ...and in some ways it makes sense. Surely, if you do something for long enough, you'll get better at it right? The reality is, though, I guess, that in most domains, if you don't make an effort to get better, then the ceiling for the skill level you can acquire by just repeating the same mistakes over and over is pretty low. It's like having a soccer match every day and never putting any practice in between. You get a lot of experience playing, and you'll get better, a bit, slowly... but at the end of the day, two years later you're still basically rubbish at it and a let down to your team. That's the problem I see: People not actually believing that they have to put effort in to get better at working remotely...but, I don't think it's fair to say they can't be bothered. A lot of people are trying really hard to Make Things Work... they're just doing it wrong, because they don't think that they need to actually learn new skills. That's different to being lazy. Perhaps its particularly pronounced in people who aren't accustomed to taking feedback; but it happens in all kinds of teams at all kinds of levels. Work in a hybrid team where you have to meet up physically to do 'difficult' meetings where more than 3 people have to talk? Have a team that doesn't really talk to each other outside of standup? Got an agile coach who can't share their screen? Have big online meetings where no one turns on their cameras and only one or two people actually speak? Yeah. I mean, I've had all those things on and off in the last two years. It's a bit of a joke really. It's not just execs who struggle with remote working. They're just easy targets, because they're especially bad at it.
greedo 5y ago
Bullseye. The company I work for has a large home office, plus a satellite office tower in the same city. Plus a satellite office in a second city. So even before COVID, we were working with users remotely. We own all three buildings and land, and have always been proud of that for some reason. Very emotionally invested in the Home office. Obviously COVID changed all that and exposed the opposition to remote work as just obstructionist. Our company was 100% remote for over two years, and both sales and profits have never been higher. Yet some of management really just can't deal with it now. Ironically, the IT mgmt is the one most opposed to remote work and barely signed off on a hybrid model. I'm in the same age cohort as most of our executives, and though your comment may seem ageist, I think it's spot on. These VPs and managers love to schmooze, have $$ lunches, golf with vendors etc. Their entire work life is designed around schmoozing and building their little networks with vendors so they have a safe landing spot if things go bad in their careers. You might say this is the same as ICs who build networks, but I don't get paid to network. I don't recommend technologies based on who I golf with. Mgmt needs to realize they can't unring this bell, and will continue to lose effective performers who (especially in IT) have more options since COVID.
- musingsole 5y ago
  > We own all three buildings and land, and have always been proud of that for some reason Many businesses -- despite whatever their mission statement may be -- are not-so-thinly veiled real estate vehicles. Even businesses with a healthy income from whatever good or service they provide will often have another 25%+ in income from real estate gains. McDonald's is probably a good example of this. I learned this pitching a business plan where an executive thought the "occupant mission" was compelling, but that we needed more expertise on the types of properties we could add value to.
  - asdff 5y ago
    It's hillarious when you get some bullheaded executive who comes into these companies specifically to part out this real estate and raise profits for their tenure before they exit. For example, a lot of studios in hollywood in recent years have sold their back lots, and are now just leasing them back from some holding company. I'm sure this arrangement made a lot of money for some people, but I imagine in a few decades this will hurt the studios when these land owners start negotiating the next round of leases and realize they have literally all the leverage.
forinti 5y ago
I have observed that work is kind of a social event for senior managers. Some don't even plan much, so they like/need to have their teams at arm's length so that they can request a report or dispatch a task as soon as it is required.

xtracto 5y ago

In my previous job, my boss (CEO) did not "believe" in remote work. He pushed so hard for everyone to be in the office during 2020 that there were several covid outbreaks in the office. The punchline is that we had offices both in California and Mexico... and I was specially hired to open and maintain the office in Mexico. I flew several times a year to Cali (thankful) but I just couldn't make him see that covid or no covid we would have to make remote work , because I was working remotely for him. I ended up leaving for a 2x salary position and fully remote job.

soapboxrocket 5y ago
When COVID broke out I was working with a manufacturing company, helping to fix their PMO. One of the big issues they had was that the only way to get parts through the factory was for the PMs to go down to the shop floor and constantly babysit and move them; the primary directive from management was "the PMs should not be going to the shop floor." Perfect! So COVID hits and I suggest we send the PMs home to work since they are only at their desks working on their computers and talking with customers. Corporate VP: "But if we send them home how will we know if they are working?" Me: "How do you know they are working now?" Of course the most ironic part was that VP was on the phone calling in from home because he lived in a different state that had no business operations in his area. Not surprising to me, that company has since shut down.

boringg 5y ago

I would say the benefit of schmoozing (which i dont like) is information sharing about the organization. One thing thats particularly hard in large remote companies if information sharing outside of rigid structure (ie 1 on 1, meetings). Much needed even if some of it isnt great info. And yeah i would say your take is pretty cynical and pretty ageist -> diminutive to someone for their ability to contribute is reduced greatly by using their age as a proxy.

ryandrake 5y ago
I don't think "schmoozing" is necessarily information sharing. It can be, but more often than not it's simply "socializing, but with the goal of career benefit rather than friendship". Hanging out at the water cooler, golfing with other execs, having an extended lunch at the bar, doing "one on ones" where you don't talk that much about work, walking the hallways for the simple purpose of looking busy to everyone else. These are all schmoozing. Having a hallway conversation with one person where you pass on critical business information isn't really schmoozing, but it is harmful to the overall organization.
- boringg 5y ago
  Completely disagree with you. Sometimes hallway conversations make you realize what other parts of the company is actually doing.

josephd79 5y ago

This

bearjaws 5y ago

> My cynical view is that some older executives are, indeed, not as effective in remote companies and younger ones At the beginning of the pandemic, all our "boomer" leadership couldn't even properly share their screen on zoom. We then switched to Teams, and they couldn't figure that out either. I actually in a one on one suggested all of senior leadership should take a class on remote work, and Teams, because 90% of the friction was actually self created. HR loved the idea, but guess what? They never took it. Meanwhile, software engineers are expected to learn 5 new things every month. It really has created a riff where pretty much everyone in engineering has no respect for our senior leadership. This further undermines the return to the office because its clear as day: Remote work doesn't work for THEM, but it does for the rest of the organization. I do agree that this will all die out due to market forces, younger companies are going to force the hands of incumbents and slower moving organizations.

greedo 5y ago
Two years into the pandemic, we still have executives who can't be bothered to learn something as simple as how to mute their microphones during a Teams meeting. I think it's a subconscious reaction to the idea of them being muted. In a normal meeting, no one would ever think to mute them since they're so high on the food chain.
- wokwokwok 5y ago
  I think there's a deeper, wider systemic issue here. People think they'll get better at remote working by a) being bad at it, b) putting no effort into getting better at it and c) doing it a lot. ...and in some ways it makes sense. Surely, if you do something for long enough, you'll get better at it right? The reality is, though, I guess, that in most domains, if you don't make an effort to get better, then the ceiling for the skill level you can acquire by just repeating the same mistakes over and over is pretty low. It's like having a soccer match every day and never putting any practice in between. You get a lot of experience playing, and you'll get better, a bit, slowly... but at the end of the day, two years later you're still basically rubbish at it and a let down to your team. That's the problem I see: People not actually believing that they have to put effort in to get better at working remotely...but, I don't think it's fair to say they can't be bothered. A lot of people are trying really hard to Make Things Work... they're just doing it wrong, because they don't think that they need to actually learn new skills. That's different to being lazy. Perhaps its particularly pronounced in people who aren't accustomed to taking feedback; but it happens in all kinds of teams at all kinds of levels. Work in a hybrid team where you have to meet up physically to do 'difficult' meetings where more than 3 people have to talk? Have a team that doesn't really talk to each other outside of standup? Got an agile coach who can't share their screen? Have big online meetings where no one turns on their cameras and only one or two people actually speak? Yeah. I mean, I've had all those things on and off in the last two years. It's a bit of a joke really. It's not just execs who struggle with remote working. They're just easy targets, because they're especially bad at it.

greedo 5y ago

Bullseye. The company I work for has a large home office, plus a satellite office tower in the same city. Plus a satellite office in a second city. So even before COVID, we were working with users remotely. We own all three buildings and land, and have always been proud of that for some reason. Very emotionally invested in the Home office. Obviously COVID changed all that and exposed the opposition to remote work as just obstructionist. Our company was 100% remote for over two years, and both sales and profits have never been higher. Yet some of management really just can't deal with it now. Ironically, the IT mgmt is the one most opposed to remote work and barely signed off on a hybrid model. I'm in the same age cohort as most of our executives, and though your comment may seem ageist, I think it's spot on. These VPs and managers love to schmooze, have $$ lunches, golf with vendors etc. Their entire work life is designed around schmoozing and building their little networks with vendors so they have a safe landing spot if things go bad in their careers. You might say this is the same as ICs who build networks, but I don't get paid to network. I don't recommend technologies based on who I golf with. Mgmt needs to realize they can't unring this bell, and will continue to lose effective performers who (especially in IT) have more options since COVID.

musingsole 5y ago
> We own all three buildings and land, and have always been proud of that for some reason Many businesses -- despite whatever their mission statement may be -- are not-so-thinly veiled real estate vehicles. Even businesses with a healthy income from whatever good or service they provide will often have another 25%+ in income from real estate gains. McDonald's is probably a good example of this. I learned this pitching a business plan where an executive thought the "occupant mission" was compelling, but that we needed more expertise on the types of properties we could add value to.
- asdff 5y ago
  It's hillarious when you get some bullheaded executive who comes into these companies specifically to part out this real estate and raise profits for their tenure before they exit. For example, a lot of studios in hollywood in recent years have sold their back lots, and are now just leasing them back from some holding company. I'm sure this arrangement made a lot of money for some people, but I imagine in a few decades this will hurt the studios when these land owners start negotiating the next round of leases and realize they have literally all the leverage.

forinti 5y ago

I have observed that work is kind of a social event for senior managers. Some don't even plan much, so they like/need to have their teams at arm's length so that they can request a report or dispatch a task as soon as it is required.