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I have heard this argument against WFH many times over. Especially from my relatives that work in bullshit jobs (cough ... investment banking ... cough). I won

by v-erne 5y ago

I have heard this argument against WFH many times over. Especially from my relatives that work in bullshit jobs (cough ... investment banking ... cough). I wonder if people that brings up this understand what they are really saying. Because it's not like WFH reduces the amount of promotion that goes around. Its just have the potential of reallocating it differently. And this means that they are afraid that they will be out competed by others that are willing to be near decision makers to influence (or rather manipulate them). I would argue that this says more about those people than about WFH.

ricardobayes 5y ago
As I work for a company that was founded during the pandemic, it's 100% remote in the truest meaning of the word. I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. I think for those jobs, both camps are right. To say WFH was just a temporary measure is just as valid to say you like working from home so much now you want that.
- v-erne 5y ago
  >> I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. True, I was not talking about true remote job in truly remote company - if there are no possibility for in personal meeting than the power dynamic changes and the play ground is leveled for all players.
kamaal 5y ago
>>I would argue that this says more about those people than about WFH. Not sure what your argument is, if a person eats lunch with another person on an everyday basis, or may be goes for a tea break walk, they are also likely to talk things about family, games and other such stuff. You really shouldn't be surprised if this sort of a relationship has a stronger bonding and more meaning, and this just can't be developed by some one calling another person for a 2 minute call. And by the definition when some opportunity comes up they are more likely to remember them due to both proximity and frequency of interactions. If you have a friend whom you only occasionally ping on Facebook for a 'Happy Birthday!' message, you shouldn't be surprised if you aren't invited to parties after a while. It doesn't mean 'it says more about them', they are just reciprocating your feeling towards them, you don't want to see them in person, now neither do they. Maintaining good relationship with bosses is just one of those hygienic things you do at work, like dressing well, or using a mouth freshener or showing up everyday etc etc. If you want any influence at all, there are a few set of things you need to do, there's enough literature written about this. Things like talking well, agreeability, consensus building, clarity, having the other person empty their thoughts etc etc. You just have to do this regardless of whatever profession you are in, because this is how humans work.
- v-erne 5y ago
  I'm not surprised - I really do understand all of this and know how the game works and kinda even know how to play it, just .. I'm really reluctant to do it. If I did it would be a bit like in the famous quote from Groucho Marx : "I Don’t Want to Belong to Any Club That Will Accept Me as a Member" The thing is that I was just really trying only to point out what a shitty system we have all developed together (we as a society) through this kind of tactics. I suspect that You are looking at this only through the point of view of individual that is optimizing their own outcomes (the individual being yourself probably). But I try to look at this from a bit more systemic point of view. And what I see from up there isn't pretty. Of course for me this isn't only purely theoretical thing - what really buggers me are the logical consequences of this system. For example I really do not want to work for someone that becomes by boss only because he can play social game (and maintain proper relationships with key persons in company). But the thing is, that in this system, almost always this kind of person wins.
- greedo 5y ago
  I maintain a good relationship with my boss by communicating clearly with him. By asking him questions about his expectations, and by providing him with information that he needs to do his job. He trusts me to do these things, despite not knowing much of my personal life, and definitely NOT because either of us "empty their thoughts." My boss isn't my friend. He's my boss. Clear boundaries are healthy boundaries.

by v-erne 5y ago

ricardobayes 5y ago

As I work for a company that was founded during the pandemic, it's 100% remote in the truest meaning of the word. I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. I think for those jobs, both camps are right. To say WFH was just a temporary measure is just as valid to say you like working from home so much now you want that.

v-erne 5y ago
>> I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. True, I was not talking about true remote job in truly remote company - if there are no possibility for in personal meeting than the power dynamic changes and the play ground is leveled for all players.

kamaal 5y ago

>>I would argue that this says more about those people than about WFH. Not sure what your argument is, if a person eats lunch with another person on an everyday basis, or may be goes for a tea break walk, they are also likely to talk things about family, games and other such stuff. You really shouldn't be surprised if this sort of a relationship has a stronger bonding and more meaning, and this just can't be developed by some one calling another person for a 2 minute call. And by the definition when some opportunity comes up they are more likely to remember them due to both proximity and frequency of interactions. If you have a friend whom you only occasionally ping on Facebook for a 'Happy Birthday!' message, you shouldn't be surprised if you aren't invited to parties after a while. It doesn't mean 'it says more about them', they are just reciprocating your feeling towards them, you don't want to see them in person, now neither do they. Maintaining good relationship with bosses is just one of those hygienic things you do at work, like dressing well, or using a mouth freshener or showing up everyday etc etc. If you want any influence at all, there are a few set of things you need to do, there's enough literature written about this. Things like talking well, agreeability, consensus building, clarity, having the other person empty their thoughts etc etc. You just have to do this regardless of whatever profession you are in, because this is how humans work.

v-erne 5y ago
I'm not surprised - I really do understand all of this and know how the game works and kinda even know how to play it, just .. I'm really reluctant to do it. If I did it would be a bit like in the famous quote from Groucho Marx : "I Don’t Want to Belong to Any Club That Will Accept Me as a Member" The thing is that I was just really trying only to point out what a shitty system we have all developed together (we as a society) through this kind of tactics. I suspect that You are looking at this only through the point of view of individual that is optimizing their own outcomes (the individual being yourself probably). But I try to look at this from a bit more systemic point of view. And what I see from up there isn't pretty. Of course for me this isn't only purely theoretical thing - what really buggers me are the logical consequences of this system. For example I really do not want to work for someone that becomes by boss only because he can play social game (and maintain proper relationships with key persons in company). But the thing is, that in this system, almost always this kind of person wins.
greedo 5y ago
I maintain a good relationship with my boss by communicating clearly with him. By asking him questions about his expectations, and by providing him with information that he needs to do his job. He trusts me to do these things, despite not knowing much of my personal life, and definitely NOT because either of us "empty their thoughts." My boss isn't my friend. He's my boss. Clear boundaries are healthy boundaries.