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Exactly! But meanwhile the narrative in the USA is "we're so benevolent for accepting the world's best & brightest." The USA gets stronger. The sources of that

Exactly! But meanwhile the narrative in the USA is "we're so benevolent for accepting the world's best & brightest." The USA gets stronger. The sources of that strength weaker. It's a broken idea.

renewiltord 5y ago
If you take a top experimental particle physicist and put him in Dhaka you don’t get great experimental particle physics; you get a mediocre accountant with memories of particle physics.
- chiefalchemist 5y ago
  Let me rephrase: If you take one of Dhaka's best and brightest and remove him/her...Dhaka gets nothing.
  - valarauko 5y ago
    I think the usual counter to this argument is that rather than being the best & brightest, he's a product of his time, place, and circumstances - if he were to remain in Dhaka he likely may not have been noteworthy. We really don't know one way or another.
    - chiefalchemist 5y ago
      Noteworthy is relative. Aside from being able a person needs to have the "heart" to relocate to the USA. So yeah, she / he might professionally end up an accountant. But the heart to change things? That should not be discounted either. Like it or not, there is a darkside to USA immigration policy, just because its been normalized doesn't mean it's not there.
      - valarauko 5y ago
        I don't think anybody discounts it or hand waves brain drain away. My concern is that these notions might inform (well meaning) ideas of what immigration should look like - it feels overly paternalistic and minimizes the immigrant's desires and agency. Immigration is already an incredibly difficult and uphill task that's near impossible for the vast majority of people even with the means and desire to do so. However difficult you think it is, multiply by a factor of 10. So now should the process be even harder because of concerns about brain drain? For example, should American concerns about brain drain from the underdeveloped countries inform if people should be allowed to immigrate from there? Should immigration be open only to people from rich countries?
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    If you look at the guy who would be a top experimental particle physicist in the West and leave him in Dhaka you don't get great experimental particle physics; you get a mediocre accountant with dreams of particle physics.
- rayiner 5y ago
  Fazlur Kahn, the structural engineer and architect behind the Sears Tower, once went to accept some award in his home country of Bangladesh. Someone asked why he didn’t come back home. He responded: “I design skyscrapers. What would I do here?” Which is true. At the same time, what’s been his contribution to Bangladesh? Nothing, aside from a bit of trivia I tell people when I show them around Chicago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazlur_Rahman_Khan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazlur_Rahman_Khan
  - valarauko 5y ago
    So what's the takeaway from the anecdote here? That Fazlur Khan should have returned to Bangladesh?

Exactly! But meanwhile the narrative in the USA is "we're so benevolent for accepting the world's best & brightest." The USA gets stronger. The sources of that strength weaker. It's a broken idea.

renewiltord 5y ago

If you take a top experimental particle physicist and put him in Dhaka you don’t get great experimental particle physics; you get a mediocre accountant with memories of particle physics.

chiefalchemist 5y ago
Let me rephrase: If you take one of Dhaka's best and brightest and remove him/her...Dhaka gets nothing.
- valarauko 5y ago
  I think the usual counter to this argument is that rather than being the best & brightest, he's a product of his time, place, and circumstances - if he were to remain in Dhaka he likely may not have been noteworthy. We really don't know one way or another.
  - chiefalchemist 5y ago
    Noteworthy is relative. Aside from being able a person needs to have the "heart" to relocate to the USA. So yeah, she / he might professionally end up an accountant. But the heart to change things? That should not be discounted either. Like it or not, there is a darkside to USA immigration policy, just because its been normalized doesn't mean it's not there.
    - valarauko 5y ago
      I don't think anybody discounts it or hand waves brain drain away. My concern is that these notions might inform (well meaning) ideas of what immigration should look like - it feels overly paternalistic and minimizes the immigrant's desires and agency. Immigration is already an incredibly difficult and uphill task that's near impossible for the vast majority of people even with the means and desire to do so. However difficult you think it is, multiply by a factor of 10. So now should the process be even harder because of concerns about brain drain? For example, should American concerns about brain drain from the underdeveloped countries inform if people should be allowed to immigrate from there? Should immigration be open only to people from rich countries?
- renewiltord 5y ago
  If you look at the guy who would be a top experimental particle physicist in the West and leave him in Dhaka you don't get great experimental particle physics; you get a mediocre accountant with dreams of particle physics.
rayiner 5y ago
Fazlur Kahn, the structural engineer and architect behind the Sears Tower, once went to accept some award in his home country of Bangladesh. Someone asked why he didn’t come back home. He responded: “I design skyscrapers. What would I do here?” Which is true. At the same time, what’s been his contribution to Bangladesh? Nothing, aside from a bit of trivia I tell people when I show them around Chicago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazlur_Rahman_Khan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazlur_Rahman_Khan
- valarauko 5y ago
  So what's the takeaway from the anecdote here? That Fazlur Khan should have returned to Bangladesh?