6 ms·

There is a big reason to Work from office, apart from the merits of the case like close collaboration, productivity et al. Most important of all is being able t

by kamaal 5y ago

There is a big reason to Work from office, apart from the merits of the case like close collaboration, productivity et al. Most important of all is being able to see your manager on a day to day basis, a lot of people don't really understand how important seeing your bosses on a day to day basis can be to their careers. Most people have a problem of neglecting what isn't front of them, it's not malice or anything its just how it is. We ourselves have forgotten people with whom we don't have in person check often. People change with time, and people tend to work more closely, and are more likely to give promotions, rewards or anything for that matter to people with whom they have a daily check-in. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, compensation, benefits and overall career trajectories of people who work with top bosses at office is better than those working from remote.

ricardobayes 5y ago
Out of sight, out of mind
- kamaal 5y ago
  So many people don't realise this. You haven't seen your cousin or a friend for a while? What is your perception of them now? I am sure all that Facebook liking and commenting hasn't given you a clue of what they are now, and more importantly even the perception of them from when you last had a chance to see them often has now been long forgotten/hazy. The facts here are anybody you don't see often, you don't know them well enough and they don't figure anywhere in your list of top people to give anything.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    > The facts here are anybody you don't see often, you don't know them well enough and they don't figure anywhere in your list of top people to give anything. Then you leave and find work with someone that doesn't have the attention span of a goldfish. If you're producing work of value you should be compensated. If the company is doing well then all of the employees should be doing well. No one should have to put on a song and dance for their managers to get their work recognized and rewarded. If your manager can't remember you unless you're in front of them at all times they're not fit for their job.
    - kamaal 5y ago
      >>Then you leave and find work with someone that doesn't have the attention span of a goldfish. Which is basically every where and every one. The bad news is you now start at the bottom of your level at the new company. >>If you're producing work of value you should be compensated. How naive are developers really? >>If the company is doing well then all of the employees should be doing well. There's a pyramid everywhere, even at F/MAANG's. Some one is always paid more than others, and that some one isn't always making it up on merit. >>No one should have to put on a song and dance for their managers to get their work recognized and rewarded. Work isn't an anonymous exam, subjective judgement follows by merely existence of more than one person in a team. >>If your manager can't remember you unless you're in front of them at all times they're not fit for their job. Yeah sadly, in a performance review, its us being evaluated not them.
  - v-erne 5y ago
    I have heard this argument against WFH many times over. Especially from my relatives that work in bullshit jobs (cough ... investment banking ... cough). I wonder if people that brings up this understand what they are really saying. Because it's not like WFH reduces the amount of promotion that goes around. Its just have the potential of reallocating it differently. And this means that they are afraid that they will be out competed by others that are willing to be near decision makers to influence (or rather manipulate them). I would argue that this says more about those people than about WFH.
    - ricardobayes 5y ago
      As I work for a company that was founded during the pandemic, it's 100% remote in the truest meaning of the word. I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. I think for those jobs, both camps are right. To say WFH was just a temporary measure is just as valid to say you like working from home so much now you want that.
      - v-erne 5y ago
        >> I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. True, I was not talking about true remote job in truly remote company - if there are no possibility for in personal meeting than the power dynamic changes and the play ground is leveled for all players.
    - kamaal 5y ago
      >>I would argue that this says more about those people than about WFH. Not sure what your argument is, if a person eats lunch with another person on an everyday basis, or may be goes for a tea break walk, they are also likely to talk things about family, games and other such stuff. You really shouldn't be surprised if this sort of a relationship has a stronger bonding and more meaning, and this just can't be developed by some one calling another person for a 2 minute call. And by the definition when some opportunity comes up they are more likely to remember them due to both proximity and frequency of interactions. If you have a friend whom you only occasionally ping on Facebook for a 'Happy Birthday!' message, you shouldn't be surprised if you aren't invited to parties after a while. It doesn't mean 'it says more about them', they are just reciprocating your feeling towards them, you don't want to see them in person, now neither do they. Maintaining good relationship with bosses is just one of those hygienic things you do at work, like dressing well, or using a mouth freshener or showing up everyday etc etc. If you want any influence at all, there are a few set of things you need to do, there's enough literature written about this. Things like talking well, agreeability, consensus building, clarity, having the other person empty their thoughts etc etc. You just have to do this regardless of whatever profession you are in, because this is how humans work.
  - greedo 5y ago
    Utterly ridiculous. My best friend lives 1600 miles away, and has for 10 years. We chat daily, sharing more details of our lives than I ever thought possible. My mom lives 2000 miles away, I only get to see her once a year. Yet we talk on the phone, write emails, have FaceTime, and yes, like on FB or Instagram. A cousin I haven't seen in a long time will take catching up at meals and activities; that's the role of family reunions. The idea that you need to be physically close to be emotionally close is just silly.
    - kamaal 5y ago
      >>The idea that you need to be physically close to be emotionally close is just silly. Note this works with one's mom but not wife. Meaning what is the nature of relationship you are pursuing here? Deeper the stake closer you need to be.
      - greedo 5y ago
        This is reductio ad absurdum. I don't need my boss to be an intimate partner.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
BlargMcLarg 5y ago
>I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, compensation, benefits and overall career trajectories of people who work with top bosses at office is better than those working from remote. The way people find new jobs today is already largely digital. Networking events still exist as a once-every-so-often opportunity. The majority of recruiters and employers are still looking at personal projects, all which are accessible from a distance. Realistically there is very little reason the majority of people are affected by this when it comes to new jobs. The majority of people don't grow well staying at the same job. This immediately lessens the impact of removing physical connections as a means to get better compensation. We've seen dozens of articles regarding this. As an added benefit, I wouldn't be surprised remote workers would have an easier time job hopping too. I see many reasons the above would unfold, but even without WFH things have been trending against company loyalty and dedication being a great way to further oneself in most of the west.
di4na 5y ago
I mean i already never got a raise or career path and already knew job hopping was the only way up, as it has been for the past decade. And never got a manager trying to change that. We are in a mercenary industry and the faster we accept that the better for us all.
mathieuh 5y ago
Bear in mind that not everyone is particularly career-focused. I'm perfectly happy getting "meets expectations" at annual reviews, and if I'm not happy with the pay rise (as happened to me last week), I'm happy looking for another job to get the bump I want. People who bother to go on HN probably skew more towards career-focused than not, but plenty of people are very happy doing the work given to them and no more.
- i_love_music 5y ago
  I'm glad I'm not the only one. I love this community but sometimes it bums me out. If work is what truly makes people happen, then awesome, have at it. Personally, I get some but not all of self-fulfillment out of it. I use the paycheck to do the things I actually care about.
jcims 5y ago
There’s truth to this but the reality is that even when you’re in the office you might not see your boss on a day to day basis. I haven’t lived in the same state as my boss for the past seven years. Remote work for me has been a great equalizer. One advantage of WFH: Zoom has put me in front of more senior leadership on a more frequent basis than I’ve ever seen while in the office. I’ve talked to managing directors on a weekly basis, sometimes daily, for the past 18 months or so. Prior to that it was quarterly at best.
detaro 5y ago
Not sure how "have a daily check-in" requires being in the office? If anything, more communication happening in open channels vs 1:1 talks means more visibility to higher levels.
civilized 5y ago
Not my experience. I find that people who have good ideas and do quality work can be noticed and recognized in a remote environment. It's the mediocre that need face time to move up. I'm sure my experience is not universal and it varies a lot with team and company.
- greedo 5y ago
  My team prior to COVID could be broken down into four categories: introverts who perform well, introverts who don't perform, extroverts who perform well and extroverts who don't perform well. When in the office, the un-performing extroverts could schmooze, bullshit, and kiss ass to maintain status. They've lost that now, and it's obvious how they're performing (though measuring performance in IT is very tough). The extroverts who previously performed well are doing the same, but have learned how to use online tools to maintain their status. Now it's even easier to kiss up privately to your boss or scheme with another manager behind your bosses back. The introverts are even more interesting. Past underperformers have improved dramatically. Whether it's not having to play the Game that they're unable or uncomfortable, they've all inarguably improved. The introverts who were doing well prior to WFH are also improving, though not at as dramatic a rate.

by kamaal 5y ago

ricardobayes 5y ago

Out of sight, out of mind

kamaal 5y ago
So many people don't realise this. You haven't seen your cousin or a friend for a while? What is your perception of them now? I am sure all that Facebook liking and commenting hasn't given you a clue of what they are now, and more importantly even the perception of them from when you last had a chance to see them often has now been long forgotten/hazy. The facts here are anybody you don't see often, you don't know them well enough and they don't figure anywhere in your list of top people to give anything.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  > The facts here are anybody you don't see often, you don't know them well enough and they don't figure anywhere in your list of top people to give anything. Then you leave and find work with someone that doesn't have the attention span of a goldfish. If you're producing work of value you should be compensated. If the company is doing well then all of the employees should be doing well. No one should have to put on a song and dance for their managers to get their work recognized and rewarded. If your manager can't remember you unless you're in front of them at all times they're not fit for their job.
  - kamaal 5y ago
    >>Then you leave and find work with someone that doesn't have the attention span of a goldfish. Which is basically every where and every one. The bad news is you now start at the bottom of your level at the new company. >>If you're producing work of value you should be compensated. How naive are developers really? >>If the company is doing well then all of the employees should be doing well. There's a pyramid everywhere, even at F/MAANG's. Some one is always paid more than others, and that some one isn't always making it up on merit. >>No one should have to put on a song and dance for their managers to get their work recognized and rewarded. Work isn't an anonymous exam, subjective judgement follows by merely existence of more than one person in a team. >>If your manager can't remember you unless you're in front of them at all times they're not fit for their job. Yeah sadly, in a performance review, its us being evaluated not them.
- v-erne 5y ago
  I have heard this argument against WFH many times over. Especially from my relatives that work in bullshit jobs (cough ... investment banking ... cough). I wonder if people that brings up this understand what they are really saying. Because it's not like WFH reduces the amount of promotion that goes around. Its just have the potential of reallocating it differently. And this means that they are afraid that they will be out competed by others that are willing to be near decision makers to influence (or rather manipulate them). I would argue that this says more about those people than about WFH.
  - ricardobayes 5y ago
    As I work for a company that was founded during the pandemic, it's 100% remote in the truest meaning of the word. I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. I think for those jobs, both camps are right. To say WFH was just a temporary measure is just as valid to say you like working from home so much now you want that.
    - v-erne 5y ago
      >> I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. True, I was not talking about true remote job in truly remote company - if there are no possibility for in personal meeting than the power dynamic changes and the play ground is leveled for all players.
  - kamaal 5y ago
    >>I would argue that this says more about those people than about WFH. Not sure what your argument is, if a person eats lunch with another person on an everyday basis, or may be goes for a tea break walk, they are also likely to talk things about family, games and other such stuff. You really shouldn't be surprised if this sort of a relationship has a stronger bonding and more meaning, and this just can't be developed by some one calling another person for a 2 minute call. And by the definition when some opportunity comes up they are more likely to remember them due to both proximity and frequency of interactions. If you have a friend whom you only occasionally ping on Facebook for a 'Happy Birthday!' message, you shouldn't be surprised if you aren't invited to parties after a while. It doesn't mean 'it says more about them', they are just reciprocating your feeling towards them, you don't want to see them in person, now neither do they. Maintaining good relationship with bosses is just one of those hygienic things you do at work, like dressing well, or using a mouth freshener or showing up everyday etc etc. If you want any influence at all, there are a few set of things you need to do, there's enough literature written about this. Things like talking well, agreeability, consensus building, clarity, having the other person empty their thoughts etc etc. You just have to do this regardless of whatever profession you are in, because this is how humans work.
- greedo 5y ago
  Utterly ridiculous. My best friend lives 1600 miles away, and has for 10 years. We chat daily, sharing more details of our lives than I ever thought possible. My mom lives 2000 miles away, I only get to see her once a year. Yet we talk on the phone, write emails, have FaceTime, and yes, like on FB or Instagram. A cousin I haven't seen in a long time will take catching up at meals and activities; that's the role of family reunions. The idea that you need to be physically close to be emotionally close is just silly.
  - kamaal 5y ago
    >>The idea that you need to be physically close to be emotionally close is just silly. Note this works with one's mom but not wife. Meaning what is the nature of relationship you are pursuing here? Deeper the stake closer you need to be.
    - greedo 5y ago
      This is reductio ad absurdum. I don't need my boss to be an intimate partner.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

BlargMcLarg 5y ago

>I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, compensation, benefits and overall career trajectories of people who work with top bosses at office is better than those working from remote. The way people find new jobs today is already largely digital. Networking events still exist as a once-every-so-often opportunity. The majority of recruiters and employers are still looking at personal projects, all which are accessible from a distance. Realistically there is very little reason the majority of people are affected by this when it comes to new jobs. The majority of people don't grow well staying at the same job. This immediately lessens the impact of removing physical connections as a means to get better compensation. We've seen dozens of articles regarding this. As an added benefit, I wouldn't be surprised remote workers would have an easier time job hopping too. I see many reasons the above would unfold, but even without WFH things have been trending against company loyalty and dedication being a great way to further oneself in most of the west.

di4na 5y ago

I mean i already never got a raise or career path and already knew job hopping was the only way up, as it has been for the past decade. And never got a manager trying to change that. We are in a mercenary industry and the faster we accept that the better for us all.

mathieuh 5y ago

Bear in mind that not everyone is particularly career-focused. I'm perfectly happy getting "meets expectations" at annual reviews, and if I'm not happy with the pay rise (as happened to me last week), I'm happy looking for another job to get the bump I want. People who bother to go on HN probably skew more towards career-focused than not, but plenty of people are very happy doing the work given to them and no more.

i_love_music 5y ago
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I love this community but sometimes it bums me out. If work is what truly makes people happen, then awesome, have at it. Personally, I get some but not all of self-fulfillment out of it. I use the paycheck to do the things I actually care about.

jcims 5y ago

There’s truth to this but the reality is that even when you’re in the office you might not see your boss on a day to day basis. I haven’t lived in the same state as my boss for the past seven years. Remote work for me has been a great equalizer. One advantage of WFH: Zoom has put me in front of more senior leadership on a more frequent basis than I’ve ever seen while in the office. I’ve talked to managing directors on a weekly basis, sometimes daily, for the past 18 months or so. Prior to that it was quarterly at best.

detaro 5y ago

Not sure how "have a daily check-in" requires being in the office? If anything, more communication happening in open channels vs 1:1 talks means more visibility to higher levels.

civilized 5y ago

Not my experience. I find that people who have good ideas and do quality work can be noticed and recognized in a remote environment. It's the mediocre that need face time to move up. I'm sure my experience is not universal and it varies a lot with team and company.

greedo 5y ago
My team prior to COVID could be broken down into four categories: introverts who perform well, introverts who don't perform, extroverts who perform well and extroverts who don't perform well. When in the office, the un-performing extroverts could schmooze, bullshit, and kiss ass to maintain status. They've lost that now, and it's obvious how they're performing (though measuring performance in IT is very tough). The extroverts who previously performed well are doing the same, but have learned how to use online tools to maintain their status. Now it's even easier to kiss up privately to your boss or scheme with another manager behind your bosses back. The introverts are even more interesting. Past underperformers have improved dramatically. Whether it's not having to play the Game that they're unable or uncomfortable, they've all inarguably improved. The introverts who were doing well prior to WFH are also improving, though not at as dramatic a rate.