4 ms·

In 1944 the Federal income tax rate was as high as 94% for those making more than $200,000.

floren 5y ago
Posters will now stumble over each other to assure you that tax evasion was so widespread that actually the effective tax rate was lower than Reagan's wildest dreams.
- credit_guy 5y ago
  All right, then I'll ask the other question. What do you consider "fair"? You don't say it, and the GP doesn't, but the implicit assertion is that the rich don't pay their "fair share", presumably because in some mythological past they used to pay 94%. What is then "fair"? 94% ? Do you have a formula? At least a principle. If I make $100 MM (I don't), should I pay 50%, 60%, 70%? I mean, even if I pay 99%, I still retain more than 99% of the Americans, right?
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > Do you have a formula. At least a principle. I have a formula and a principle. Anyone earning $100 MM or above should pay the same effective percentage as the median taxpayer... relative to their wealth. The median US household has a net worth of $120k and pays about $10k in taxes each year. That equates to an 8% wealth tax. If a billionaire has $1 MM in income one year, they could pay $2 MM in tax and not even notice, despite that being a 200% effective income tax rate. What matters, in terms of "fairness", is what that burden feels like, which is losing 0.2% of their wealth (assuming wealth of exactly $1000 MM). For the median household that would be like paying $240 in taxes. Note that this doesn't even take into account the law of diminishing marginal returns, which states that the millionth dollar matters less to someone than their first dollar, so the millionth dollar should be taxed at a higher rate for the same hedonic burden.
    - azth 5y ago
      What's fair is a constant rate across everyone regardless of income level (once a minimum threshold is reached) as Islam does in Zakat. Without getting into too many details, it requires 2.5% of the amount of money sitting in the bank (or equivalent) for a year to be donated to certain classes of charity. It works so well that it has been reported that there were no poor people left to accept Zakat in Iraq during the Ummayad period.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      I'm not sure why my comment is so objectionable, when all I did was offer a formula and principle as per the parent comment's request. I suspect that people with more than $100 MM in wealth have better things to do with their time than downvote suggestions on HN that they should pay more tax, so, in the absence of any more substantive criticism, I'll assume the objectors were people who consider themselves temporarily embarrassed millionaires. http://www.temporarilyembarrassedmillionaires.org/ http://www.temporarilyembarrassedmillionaires.org/
      - credit_guy 5y ago
        I did not downvote you (on HN you can't downvote someone who answers your comment). I think you proposed a reasonable option, but a bit imprecise. It's not clear if you advocate for a wealth-based tax, or some type of crossover tax, like a max between an income-based tax and a wealth-based tax. In any case, a lot of people (and especially a lot of startup oriented people, like readers of the HN forum) are against taxes on unrealized gains, which is what your proposal would end up to be. As for the temporarily embarassed millionaire. I have a different reason to oppose taxing the wealthy. In my native country there's a saying that roughly translates "it's easy to prescribe 10 whiplashes to someone else's buttocks". I personally find profoundly immoral to wish a category of people to suffer, when you know that you are not in that category. Now, you may say that the rich people don't "suffer" when they pay more taxes, but I don't know that. I believe in the benefit of doubt. As far as I'm concerned, if someone is rich, they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor, not to a lesser extent than me. I personally know lots, really lots of people who work much harder than me, and make more money than me. They have chosen to forgo or postpone gratification in life, and I chose not to. I can clamor for them to now forgo their reward, but I simply find that immoral.
  - azth 5y ago
    I urge you to look into Zakat to find that formula. It works and is actually fair.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >Posters will now stumble over each other to assure you that tax evasion was so widespread Arranging your income to reduce the tax paid in accordance with the law isn't tax evasion.
  - cplusplusfellow 5y ago
    I’m pretty sure the rationale given by current politicians for at-present proposals is that they are arranging their income to avoid taxes, and therefore they aren’t paying their “fair” share. It’s nauseating but evasion (a legal term) and avoidance are taken as the same morally compromised position now.
    - chrismcb 5y ago
      Tax evasion is illegal and can get you thrown in jail. Tax avoidance is legal. And much everyone tries to avoid as much taxes as possible.
- lbrito 5y ago
  This. Brains here clearly in overdrive trying to elicit all the vaguely possible excuses and attenuations, everything but confronting the hard fact staring them in the face on a G-damn spreadsheet. Folks, it doesn't get more straightforward than a spreadsheet. Income tax in the US was higher in the mid-1900s than it is today in Europe.

Posters will now stumble over each other to assure you that tax evasion was so widespread that actually the effective tax rate was lower than Reagan's wildest dreams.

credit_guy 5y ago
All right, then I'll ask the other question. What do you consider "fair"? You don't say it, and the GP doesn't, but the implicit assertion is that the rich don't pay their "fair share", presumably because in some mythological past they used to pay 94%. What is then "fair"? 94% ? Do you have a formula? At least a principle. If I make $100 MM (I don't), should I pay 50%, 60%, 70%? I mean, even if I pay 99%, I still retain more than 99% of the Americans, right?
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > Do you have a formula. At least a principle. I have a formula and a principle. Anyone earning $100 MM or above should pay the same effective percentage as the median taxpayer... relative to their wealth. The median US household has a net worth of $120k and pays about $10k in taxes each year. That equates to an 8% wealth tax. If a billionaire has $1 MM in income one year, they could pay $2 MM in tax and not even notice, despite that being a 200% effective income tax rate. What matters, in terms of "fairness", is what that burden feels like, which is losing 0.2% of their wealth (assuming wealth of exactly $1000 MM). For the median household that would be like paying $240 in taxes. Note that this doesn't even take into account the law of diminishing marginal returns, which states that the millionth dollar matters less to someone than their first dollar, so the millionth dollar should be taxed at a higher rate for the same hedonic burden.
  - azth 5y ago
    What's fair is a constant rate across everyone regardless of income level (once a minimum threshold is reached) as Islam does in Zakat. Without getting into too many details, it requires 2.5% of the amount of money sitting in the bank (or equivalent) for a year to be donated to certain classes of charity. It works so well that it has been reported that there were no poor people left to accept Zakat in Iraq during the Ummayad period.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    I'm not sure why my comment is so objectionable, when all I did was offer a formula and principle as per the parent comment's request. I suspect that people with more than $100 MM in wealth have better things to do with their time than downvote suggestions on HN that they should pay more tax, so, in the absence of any more substantive criticism, I'll assume the objectors were people who consider themselves temporarily embarrassed millionaires. http://www.temporarilyembarrassedmillionaires.org/ http://www.temporarilyembarrassedmillionaires.org/
    - credit_guy 5y ago
      I did not downvote you (on HN you can't downvote someone who answers your comment). I think you proposed a reasonable option, but a bit imprecise. It's not clear if you advocate for a wealth-based tax, or some type of crossover tax, like a max between an income-based tax and a wealth-based tax. In any case, a lot of people (and especially a lot of startup oriented people, like readers of the HN forum) are against taxes on unrealized gains, which is what your proposal would end up to be. As for the temporarily embarassed millionaire. I have a different reason to oppose taxing the wealthy. In my native country there's a saying that roughly translates "it's easy to prescribe 10 whiplashes to someone else's buttocks". I personally find profoundly immoral to wish a category of people to suffer, when you know that you are not in that category. Now, you may say that the rich people don't "suffer" when they pay more taxes, but I don't know that. I believe in the benefit of doubt. As far as I'm concerned, if someone is rich, they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor, not to a lesser extent than me. I personally know lots, really lots of people who work much harder than me, and make more money than me. They have chosen to forgo or postpone gratification in life, and I chose not to. I can clamor for them to now forgo their reward, but I simply find that immoral.
- azth 5y ago
  I urge you to look into Zakat to find that formula. It works and is actually fair.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Posters will now stumble over each other to assure you that tax evasion was so widespread Arranging your income to reduce the tax paid in accordance with the law isn't tax evasion.
- cplusplusfellow 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure the rationale given by current politicians for at-present proposals is that they are arranging their income to avoid taxes, and therefore they aren’t paying their “fair” share. It’s nauseating but evasion (a legal term) and avoidance are taken as the same morally compromised position now.
  - chrismcb 5y ago
    Tax evasion is illegal and can get you thrown in jail. Tax avoidance is legal. And much everyone tries to avoid as much taxes as possible.
lbrito 5y ago
This. Brains here clearly in overdrive trying to elicit all the vaguely possible excuses and attenuations, everything but confronting the hard fact staring them in the face on a G-damn spreadsheet. Folks, it doesn't get more straightforward than a spreadsheet. Income tax in the US was higher in the mid-1900s than it is today in Europe.