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The fact that our government doesn't have the collective intelligence to just mail the tax bill using the information it already knows, with the option for the

The fact that our government doesn't have the collective intelligence to just mail the tax bill using the information it already knows, with the option for the recipient to submit corrections/deductions, is a testament to the utter failure of governance in the US. Fortunately having an ineffective government can often be a feature instead of a bug.

bombcar 5y ago
The IRS wants to do it, they already have all the software internally to do it, they're legally barred from doing it. It's nuts. Intuit isn't worth that much.
- sidewndr46 5y ago
  My understanding is that most Western European get what amounts to a "final bill" for the previous year sometime early on each year. It shows what you owe. If you don't want to contest it, you just pay it and you're done. The fact that our government has made such a process for fulfilling a legal obligation speaks volumes about the mafia-like nature of our federal government. I pay lots of property tax where I live. But its just a bill. I can and sometimes do dispute the amount owed. But imagine if each year instead of that process I had to hire an independent team to determine what I owe, make a case for that, then submit that to my local tax authority. That's basically what the IRS does with individuals.
bushbaba 5y ago
Idk. I think the IRS gets the better end of the stick here. They have you tell them how much you owe. If you report more than they knew about great they made money. If you tell them less than they knew about, then they'll audit you assuming the difference is large enough (and there being a high likelihood of winning)
- cmelbye 5y ago
  If you are audited by the IRS and they find that you overpaid, they will issue a refund. It's not a one-way street.
  - ryanianian 5y ago
    Does the IRS start an audit if they suspect you massively overpaid? They certainly do if you massively underpay.
    - _jal 5y ago
      Not an audit, but they corrected a mistake I made in my favor once. It was a trivial amount, like $30 or something, but they sent me a little packet explaining what they did, why, and a check.
  - antsar 5y ago
    Sure. But why in the world would they audit you if you overpaid?
    - function_seven 5y ago
      Whatever indicators they use to select audit recipients may correlate with under-payers, but it's not a guarantee. I'm sure there's some fraction of those they audit that turn out to have paid too much.
      - smitop 5y ago
        They have some data on this (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p55b.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p55b.pdf, pages 33-35). Out of 509,917 examinations, 18,988 resulted in a refund. There was $7.0 billion of tax refunded in 2020. For comparison, there was $17.2 billion of additional tax generated with additional recommended and unagreed amounts.
        antsar 5y ago
        Huh, that's a pretty large amount of refunds (granted, still $10B in additional revenue). Interesting data, thank you for sharing.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  this is not how taxes work with the IRS. If you make a calculation error in their favour they will correct it and issue you a refund. If you make a compilation error in their favour and get reviewed or audited, you will get a refund. They also audit based more on discrepencies vs. "likelihood of a big payout". If they precalculated your taxes and sent you a bill (or refund) it would (a) be easier, (b) be more accurate and (c) encourage simplification of the entire system. I consider that both more effective and more fair.
  - jtc331 5y ago
    You’re missing the point. The point is that the IRS isn’t aware of a good amount of income (trivial example is tips) unless you tell them about it.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      Also income from illegal activity is taxed like any other. If you get caught for doing illegal things and not reporting it on your tax bill, you're in trouble for that too. Harder to prove you're stiffing the IRS when you pay the bill they send you.
tomrod 5y ago
> Fortunately having an ineffective government can often be a feature instead of a bug. Not in a free society. An ineffective government is a conspicuous drain.
itslennysfault 5y ago
Blame Intuit for that one too. They're the ones that have spent millions to lobby to keep it this way.
- dudul 5y ago
  Or blame the people who take the money and bend over in front of lobbies.
  - parineum 5y ago
    You're dangerously closing to blaming voters for electing these people. I don't want it to be my fault...
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
In slovenia, this is done for "normal people" (people who are employed by companies (LLC, etc.), because companies have to fill out paycheck reports to the government). If you win something (eg lottery), the prize-giver has to report that too. You have to only fill out the form if you have any younger kids (tax benefit, can be done online on a governments website), and you're done. Then you just get the yearly report and a bill in the mail. If you're an eg. independent contractor, you have to fill out a full report (income, expenses, income tax already prepaid, benefits paid, etc.), but you also do it on a governments website and sign it using a digital certificate (that is free for citizens). No 3rd party software, no paying anything (unless you have an accountant do that for you, but it's relatively simple to do it by yourself), and the most time-consuming task is calculating all the yearly earnings and expenses.

bombcar 5y ago

The IRS wants to do it, they already have all the software internally to do it, they're legally barred from doing it. It's nuts. Intuit isn't worth that much.

sidewndr46 5y ago
My understanding is that most Western European get what amounts to a "final bill" for the previous year sometime early on each year. It shows what you owe. If you don't want to contest it, you just pay it and you're done. The fact that our government has made such a process for fulfilling a legal obligation speaks volumes about the mafia-like nature of our federal government. I pay lots of property tax where I live. But its just a bill. I can and sometimes do dispute the amount owed. But imagine if each year instead of that process I had to hire an independent team to determine what I owe, make a case for that, then submit that to my local tax authority. That's basically what the IRS does with individuals.

bushbaba 5y ago

Idk. I think the IRS gets the better end of the stick here. They have you tell them how much you owe. If you report more than they knew about great they made money. If you tell them less than they knew about, then they'll audit you assuming the difference is large enough (and there being a high likelihood of winning)

cmelbye 5y ago
If you are audited by the IRS and they find that you overpaid, they will issue a refund. It's not a one-way street.
- ryanianian 5y ago
  Does the IRS start an audit if they suspect you massively overpaid? They certainly do if you massively underpay.
  - _jal 5y ago
    Not an audit, but they corrected a mistake I made in my favor once. It was a trivial amount, like $30 or something, but they sent me a little packet explaining what they did, why, and a check.
- antsar 5y ago
  Sure. But why in the world would they audit you if you overpaid?
  - function_seven 5y ago
    Whatever indicators they use to select audit recipients may correlate with under-payers, but it's not a guarantee. I'm sure there's some fraction of those they audit that turn out to have paid too much.
    - smitop 5y ago
      They have some data on this (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p55b.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p55b.pdf, pages 33-35). Out of 509,917 examinations, 18,988 resulted in a refund. There was $7.0 billion of tax refunded in 2020. For comparison, there was $17.2 billion of additional tax generated with additional recommended and unagreed amounts.
      - antsar 5y ago
        Huh, that's a pretty large amount of refunds (granted, still $10B in additional revenue). Interesting data, thank you for sharing.
skeeter2020 5y ago
this is not how taxes work with the IRS. If you make a calculation error in their favour they will correct it and issue you a refund. If you make a compilation error in their favour and get reviewed or audited, you will get a refund. They also audit based more on discrepencies vs. "likelihood of a big payout". If they precalculated your taxes and sent you a bill (or refund) it would (a) be easier, (b) be more accurate and (c) encourage simplification of the entire system. I consider that both more effective and more fair.
- jtc331 5y ago
  You’re missing the point. The point is that the IRS isn’t aware of a good amount of income (trivial example is tips) unless you tell them about it.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    Also income from illegal activity is taxed like any other. If you get caught for doing illegal things and not reporting it on your tax bill, you're in trouble for that too. Harder to prove you're stiffing the IRS when you pay the bill they send you.

tomrod 5y ago

> Fortunately having an ineffective government can often be a feature instead of a bug. Not in a free society. An ineffective government is a conspicuous drain.

itslennysfault 5y ago

Blame Intuit for that one too. They're the ones that have spent millions to lobby to keep it this way.

dudul 5y ago
Or blame the people who take the money and bend over in front of lobbies.
- parineum 5y ago
  You're dangerously closing to blaming voters for electing these people. I don't want it to be my fault...

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

In slovenia, this is done for "normal people" (people who are employed by companies (LLC, etc.), because companies have to fill out paycheck reports to the government). If you win something (eg lottery), the prize-giver has to report that too. You have to only fill out the form if you have any younger kids (tax benefit, can be done online on a governments website), and you're done. Then you just get the yearly report and a bill in the mail. If you're an eg. independent contractor, you have to fill out a full report (income, expenses, income tax already prepaid, benefits paid, etc.), but you also do it on a governments website and sign it using a digital certificate (that is free for citizens). No 3rd party software, no paying anything (unless you have an accountant do that for you, but it's relatively simple to do it by yourself), and the most time-consuming task is calculating all the yearly earnings and expenses.