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And that is perhaps the point. I believe that the intention is that you should not stress about it as long as they are doing fine. And that you should not pass

And that is perhaps the point. I believe that the intention is that you should not stress about it as long as they are doing fine. And that you should not pass that stress to the child either. The grade is only there to warn you if there is a problem. To get feedback about the areas of performance, you should talk directly to the teacher and receive more than just 3 bits of information. Even with a much more granular grading system, as long as the grades are assigned based on task completion (correctly solving all the exercises in a test) instead of ranking, you will still have a inability to distinguish anything above top grade. If you move to a ranking system, where grades are assigned by comparison to peers, you run into issues of fairness, because resource availability inevitably plays a role.

mattcwilson 5y ago
You seem to be implying that there is no value in a student who just barely meets the standard trying any harder or going any further. I hear you about stress. You seem to be saying though that even when stress isn’t an issue, there is no value in that student doing anything further (at that time). Am I mistaken?
- alexvoda 5y ago
  Indeed you are mistaken. What I was saying is that grades are not the appropriate tool to motivate students who already meet the standard. You need other approaches for those students in order to keep them engaged. And in those same cases, grades are not the proper measurement tool. There is no distinction between a straight "M" and a straight "A" student in terms of motivation nor measurement. Students who perform should be challenged, given responsibilities relevant to their talents, encouraged to participate in competitions (these are ranked) and various other possibilities. Grades are simply not the tool to use beyond the level of "doing fine".
  - mattcwilson 5y ago
    > Students who perform should be ... encouraged to participate in competitions (these are ranked) ... > Grades are simply not the tool to use beyond the level of "doing fine". I am having trouble square rooting these two seemingly opposite claims. I think you are saying: in a school environment, use grades only to measure degree-below-standard. Outside school, use competitive ranking to measure degree-above-standard. Close?
    - alexvoda 5y ago
      Close. Competitions can be organized by schools too. These may be: competitions inside clubs, competitions between schools, olympiads, events with prises, etc. The point is that partitipation in the ranked system is OPTIONAL and meant to encourage performance. Grades are mandatory, are standard based, task completion based and are more a tool to detect issues. Ranking should not be mandatory because access to resources of all kinds is absolutely a factor influencing performance, and you want to keep the educational environment fair for everyone. Every student should be able to meet the standard using just the resources provided by the system. Those who don't, should repeat the year until they do. Only one student will become a champion. If a student is not able to meet the standard, it is a signal that a investigation is needed. Are there family issues? Does the student have a propper learning environment? Are they suffering from stress? Is there an issue with regards to comaptibility with the teacher? What can be done to improove the situation? The same way in a good MMO adventure game you can stick to story mode and enjoy the game, but a some people will go PvP and compete for the rankings. PvP should not be mandatory, especially if microtransactions are used for items that influence the game. And in real life, some students absolutely benefit from the equivalent of in game microtransactions, and some do not. And this is not likely to change any time soon.
      - mattcwilson 5y ago
        Cool, I totally get it. How do we stop higher education and employers from setting “competition rank” as the new standard?
        alexvoda 5y ago
        Good question. I believe it already happens, even if not always visibly. Reality is nor fair. Some people will probably propose legislation in order to maintain equality of opportunity. I do not know what the solution is. Note: I am pro standardized tests at certain checkpoints in education. But I am against, focussing on grades in day to day school life, especially in primary and middle school. In high school, I am for frequent tests (so much so that they should not be a stress), but without those tests contributing to some ranking or having an effect at some final score. Frequent tests should be more of a feedback tool.
ryandrake 5y ago
“Doing fine” is no longer cutting it. When I was her age, doing fine in school meant you go to community college or a state university and end up in an ok middle class career in an office at best, a tough but secure job at the mill at worst. For her generation, doing just “fine” in school will likely result in a lifetime of struggling—stocking shelves and waitressing—and working class poverty. The world is quickly bifurcating into haves and have-nots, and there are only a few seats left on the Boat To The Haves. She is in a global competitive slugfest for those seats with the approx. 50 million other kids her age worldwide. None of us like it but that’s the world cutthroat winner-take-most capitalism has left us in. As a parent, I would expect something as basic as a report card to differentiate “achieving way beyond expectations” from “excelling” from “doing fine”.

mattcwilson 5y ago

You seem to be implying that there is no value in a student who just barely meets the standard trying any harder or going any further. I hear you about stress. You seem to be saying though that even when stress isn’t an issue, there is no value in that student doing anything further (at that time). Am I mistaken?

alexvoda 5y ago
Indeed you are mistaken. What I was saying is that grades are not the appropriate tool to motivate students who already meet the standard. You need other approaches for those students in order to keep them engaged. And in those same cases, grades are not the proper measurement tool. There is no distinction between a straight "M" and a straight "A" student in terms of motivation nor measurement. Students who perform should be challenged, given responsibilities relevant to their talents, encouraged to participate in competitions (these are ranked) and various other possibilities. Grades are simply not the tool to use beyond the level of "doing fine".
- mattcwilson 5y ago
  > Students who perform should be ... encouraged to participate in competitions (these are ranked) ... > Grades are simply not the tool to use beyond the level of "doing fine". I am having trouble square rooting these two seemingly opposite claims. I think you are saying: in a school environment, use grades only to measure degree-below-standard. Outside school, use competitive ranking to measure degree-above-standard. Close?
  - alexvoda 5y ago
    Close. Competitions can be organized by schools too. These may be: competitions inside clubs, competitions between schools, olympiads, events with prises, etc. The point is that partitipation in the ranked system is OPTIONAL and meant to encourage performance. Grades are mandatory, are standard based, task completion based and are more a tool to detect issues. Ranking should not be mandatory because access to resources of all kinds is absolutely a factor influencing performance, and you want to keep the educational environment fair for everyone. Every student should be able to meet the standard using just the resources provided by the system. Those who don't, should repeat the year until they do. Only one student will become a champion. If a student is not able to meet the standard, it is a signal that a investigation is needed. Are there family issues? Does the student have a propper learning environment? Are they suffering from stress? Is there an issue with regards to comaptibility with the teacher? What can be done to improove the situation? The same way in a good MMO adventure game you can stick to story mode and enjoy the game, but a some people will go PvP and compete for the rankings. PvP should not be mandatory, especially if microtransactions are used for items that influence the game. And in real life, some students absolutely benefit from the equivalent of in game microtransactions, and some do not. And this is not likely to change any time soon.
    - mattcwilson 5y ago
      Cool, I totally get it. How do we stop higher education and employers from setting “competition rank” as the new standard?
      - alexvoda 5y ago
        Good question. I believe it already happens, even if not always visibly. Reality is nor fair. Some people will probably propose legislation in order to maintain equality of opportunity. I do not know what the solution is. Note: I am pro standardized tests at certain checkpoints in education. But I am against, focussing on grades in day to day school life, especially in primary and middle school. In high school, I am for frequent tests (so much so that they should not be a stress), but without those tests contributing to some ranking or having an effect at some final score. Frequent tests should be more of a feedback tool.

ryandrake 5y ago

“Doing fine” is no longer cutting it. When I was her age, doing fine in school meant you go to community college or a state university and end up in an ok middle class career in an office at best, a tough but secure job at the mill at worst. For her generation, doing just “fine” in school will likely result in a lifetime of struggling—stocking shelves and waitressing—and working class poverty. The world is quickly bifurcating into haves and have-nots, and there are only a few seats left on the Boat To The Haves. She is in a global competitive slugfest for those seats with the approx. 50 million other kids her age worldwide. None of us like it but that’s the world cutthroat winner-take-most capitalism has left us in. As a parent, I would expect something as basic as a report card to differentiate “achieving way beyond expectations” from “excelling” from “doing fine”.