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Local-ish courthouse for me only has a contact info for regular business hours. So if not in business hours, then what? There's ~3200 counties (or equivalent) i

by chipsa 5y ago

Local-ish courthouse for me only has a contact info for regular business hours. So if not in business hours, then what? There's ~3200 counties (or equivalent) in the US. There's no way to be on a first name basis with the clerks of each county courthouse, let alone if you have a big county with multiple different types of courts. As for how you validate court orders now? You largely don't. That's why it's possible to use fake court orders to take down true but unpleasant information: https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/forged-court-papers-are-being-used-to-force-negative-stories-off-of-google-results/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/forged-court-papers-are-be...

willcipriano 5y ago
Your local courthouse may not even do jury trials. It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants. If it's that important it can go in front of a district or federal judge, otherwise it can wait for business hours. Local police departments don't need the ability to engage a global surveillance apperatus at the drop of a hat. Stuff like that can be ran up the chain first.
- rosndo 5y ago
  > It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants You will be in trouble if you ignore a real warrant on this basis. Your lawyers will probably tell you that it’s better to just take the risk of possibly complying with a fake warrant.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    Who would you even give the data to if they are closed? Fax it over the the courthouse if you are concerned, or tell them it's at your location ready for pickup. If they are legit that won't be a problem.
    - otterley 5y ago
      The data is collected by the LEO, not the court. But yes, you can fax it to the law enforcement office, whose number should also be independently verifiable.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        > whose number should also be independently verifiable This is not a legal requirement. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request because you couldn’t verify the number, you go to jail.
        otterley 5y ago
        Can you point us to an incident where this has ever happened, namely, where a service provider didn't to respond to a demand immediately while they verified its authenticity and someone went to jail for it? Or even got a finger wagged at them by a judge? Third-party records production is almost never time-sensitive to the degree that, say, a warrant to search for drugs or contraband is, and there's little risk of spoliation of evidence.
        rosndo 5y ago
        As the article points out, nobody actually verifies these requests. So no, I can’t point you to such an incident. Have people been held in contempt for failing to comply fast enough? for sure.
        otterley 5y ago
        You cannot conclude that because someone has been held in contempt for intentionally failing to respond to a records production request because they simply didn’t want to do it, that someone would also be held in contempt for delaying production for a few hours while they make a good-faith attempt to verify the authenticity of a request. Judges take all the facts and circumstances into account—including intent—when making these kinds of decisions, especially those that involve depriving someone of their liberty.
otterley 5y ago
Is being unable to independently verify a request for information or a warrant a real problem, or are you just making up problems that may not actually exist? Let's stick to reality, folks. If you have ever received a demand from a court that you couldn't verify the authenticity of, I'd like to hear from you.

by chipsa 5y ago

willcipriano 5y ago

Your local courthouse may not even do jury trials. It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants. If it's that important it can go in front of a district or federal judge, otherwise it can wait for business hours. Local police departments don't need the ability to engage a global surveillance apperatus at the drop of a hat. Stuff like that can be ran up the chain first.

rosndo 5y ago
> It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants You will be in trouble if you ignore a real warrant on this basis. Your lawyers will probably tell you that it’s better to just take the risk of possibly complying with a fake warrant.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  Who would you even give the data to if they are closed? Fax it over the the courthouse if you are concerned, or tell them it's at your location ready for pickup. If they are legit that won't be a problem.
  - otterley 5y ago
    The data is collected by the LEO, not the court. But yes, you can fax it to the law enforcement office, whose number should also be independently verifiable.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      > whose number should also be independently verifiable This is not a legal requirement. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request because you couldn’t verify the number, you go to jail.
      - otterley 5y ago
        Can you point us to an incident where this has ever happened, namely, where a service provider didn't to respond to a demand immediately while they verified its authenticity and someone went to jail for it? Or even got a finger wagged at them by a judge? Third-party records production is almost never time-sensitive to the degree that, say, a warrant to search for drugs or contraband is, and there's little risk of spoliation of evidence.
        rosndo 5y ago
        As the article points out, nobody actually verifies these requests. So no, I can’t point you to such an incident. Have people been held in contempt for failing to comply fast enough? for sure.
        otterley 5y ago
        You cannot conclude that because someone has been held in contempt for intentionally failing to respond to a records production request because they simply didn’t want to do it, that someone would also be held in contempt for delaying production for a few hours while they make a good-faith attempt to verify the authenticity of a request. Judges take all the facts and circumstances into account—including intent—when making these kinds of decisions, especially those that involve depriving someone of their liberty.

otterley 5y ago

Is being unable to independently verify a request for information or a warrant a real problem, or are you just making up problems that may not actually exist? Let's stick to reality, folks. If you have ever received a demand from a court that you couldn't verify the authenticity of, I'd like to hear from you.