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> Grades allow for tracking progress across many different classes, so that you know for sure where you should spend your time studying. Which subjects you sho

> Grades allow for tracking progress across many different classes, so that you know for sure where you should spend your time studying. Which subjects you should be studying, but not how to improve your work, or specific areas of the subject you should be focusing on. If I get an A in French, do I just stop studying until I slip down to a B? I was a teacher for 15 years, and I can tell you that grades are meaningless. A kid gets an A and thinks they're done. They won't even bother to read the feedback to see how they could have improved their work. A kid gets an F and thinks they're done, they give up on the subject and again don't read any feedback. There's cultural and socioeconomic factors to add in as well. For some kids a grade C is great, for other it means they've failed. What is important is them knowing how to improve, not how they rank against their peers. You talk about your job, and meeting the needs of your client. Does that mean you don't read or listen to feedback from your client? If you get paid, no matter how badly you did the work just to meet contractual obligations, is that all you care about? Imagine you got paid on a scale, awarded by the client, with an A being the full amount and an F being $0.

yupper32 5y ago
> What is important is them knowing how to improve, not how they rank against their peers. That's not true, though. What's important in the current system is your GPA, which is sometimes correlated to your rank in the class (curved grades being the most direct correlation). What you're asking for is for the system to change. What I'm asking for is for professors to not ignore that the system exists and to recognize that the incentives are not what they'd like them to be.
- itronitron 5y ago
  My undergraduate major was within a college (within a university) in which all of the major classes were portfolio driven and the first year core classes were a mix of portfolio and graded assignments. All of the classes regularly engaged in feedback (daily, weekly, or monthly) and in a group setting as well. Students very quickly learned the criteria for A level work, and depending on the professor or assignment it wasn't always achievable. An important part of that system is educating students so they can identify for themselves where their work can be improved, and what they can achieve given their current abilities and available resources.
qiskit 5y ago
> If I get an A in French, do I just stop studying until I slip down to a B? It depends on what the student's goals are? Did the student just take french because it's required or are they taking it because they want to be fluent? All grades do is tell you what your current level is. > I was a teacher for 15 years, and I can tell you that grades are meaningless. A kid gets an A and thinks they're done. They won't even bother to read the feedback to see how they could have improved their work. A kid gets an F and thinks they're done, they give up on the subject and again don't read any feedback. You use extremes to justify your conclusion. Many students and parents use grades/feedback to spend more time on a subject, get help, etc. > There's cultural and socioeconomic factors to add in as well. So what? There will always be cultural and socioeconomic factors. People nowadays use it as a crutch. > What is important is them knowing how to improve, not how they rank against their peers. How will they know they've improved without a grade?
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
>If you get paid, no matter how badly you did the work just to meet contractual obligations, is that all you care about? For many people, yes. >Imagine you got paid on a scale, awarded by the client, with an A being the full amount and an F being $0. For many others, this is how it works. You are compensated basic on metrics of performance.
mattcwilson 5y ago
> What is important is them knowing how to improve, not how they rank against their peers. 100% agree with this. I don’t see how it’s fundamentally incompatible with grades. If anything, a pre-post grade change, imo, would be the best indicator that they have learned how to improve. How about this - don’t put limits on the number of times an assignment can be resubmitted. Grade each submission on the same scale. Don’t give the kids the grade right away. Give them the written feedback, talk to them about how they did, ask them if they want to do a resubmit. Once they answer, then reveal the grade. Repeat as many times as the student is motivated to do so. I love the idea of marrying up evaluation, iteration, objectivity, and not disheartening kids early. The point about iteration and feedback is the best part of the article; I just don’t understand why it requires eliminating graded assignments.

yupper32 5y ago

> What is important is them knowing how to improve, not how they rank against their peers. That's not true, though. What's important in the current system is your GPA, which is sometimes correlated to your rank in the class (curved grades being the most direct correlation). What you're asking for is for the system to change. What I'm asking for is for professors to not ignore that the system exists and to recognize that the incentives are not what they'd like them to be.

itronitron 5y ago
My undergraduate major was within a college (within a university) in which all of the major classes were portfolio driven and the first year core classes were a mix of portfolio and graded assignments. All of the classes regularly engaged in feedback (daily, weekly, or monthly) and in a group setting as well. Students very quickly learned the criteria for A level work, and depending on the professor or assignment it wasn't always achievable. An important part of that system is educating students so they can identify for themselves where their work can be improved, and what they can achieve given their current abilities and available resources.

qiskit 5y ago

> If I get an A in French, do I just stop studying until I slip down to a B? It depends on what the student's goals are? Did the student just take french because it's required or are they taking it because they want to be fluent? All grades do is tell you what your current level is. > I was a teacher for 15 years, and I can tell you that grades are meaningless. A kid gets an A and thinks they're done. They won't even bother to read the feedback to see how they could have improved their work. A kid gets an F and thinks they're done, they give up on the subject and again don't read any feedback. You use extremes to justify your conclusion. Many students and parents use grades/feedback to spend more time on a subject, get help, etc. > There's cultural and socioeconomic factors to add in as well. So what? There will always be cultural and socioeconomic factors. People nowadays use it as a crutch. > What is important is them knowing how to improve, not how they rank against their peers. How will they know they've improved without a grade?

StanislavPetrov 5y ago

>If you get paid, no matter how badly you did the work just to meet contractual obligations, is that all you care about? For many people, yes. >Imagine you got paid on a scale, awarded by the client, with an A being the full amount and an F being $0. For many others, this is how it works. You are compensated basic on metrics of performance.

mattcwilson 5y ago

> What is important is them knowing how to improve, not how they rank against their peers. 100% agree with this. I don’t see how it’s fundamentally incompatible with grades. If anything, a pre-post grade change, imo, would be the best indicator that they have learned how to improve. How about this - don’t put limits on the number of times an assignment can be resubmitted. Grade each submission on the same scale. Don’t give the kids the grade right away. Give them the written feedback, talk to them about how they did, ask them if they want to do a resubmit. Once they answer, then reveal the grade. Repeat as many times as the student is motivated to do so. I love the idea of marrying up evaluation, iteration, objectivity, and not disheartening kids early. The point about iteration and feedback is the best part of the article; I just don’t understand why it requires eliminating graded assignments.