6 ms·

How do you give them a call? Info given on the warrant? Which is fake? And so they fake the call back info?

by chipsa 5y ago

otterley 5y ago
The court's own website usually has contact information that can be independently verified. This isn't that difficult a problem to solve.
- sodality2 5y ago
  Do courts all have domains under a government subdomain?
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    All the courts that would issue these types of warrants will be easy to find. This isn't the sort of thing you do over a traffic ticket or shoplifting. It's not the court you go to when your neighbor owes you fifty bucks. These are murder and kidnapping cases. The people processing these warrants today are likely already on a first name basis with the clerks of these courts. Think about it, how do you validate any court order? Why is this only a problem now? I think it's beacuse they want to side step the judicial oversight process. Keep that intact, as the constitution requires, and this issue disappears.
    - kenniskrag 5y ago
      Do not forget that it is world wide. The gov has next to a signature a feature called apostille.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - chipsa 5y ago
      Local-ish courthouse for me only has a contact info for regular business hours. So if not in business hours, then what? There's ~3200 counties (or equivalent) in the US. There's no way to be on a first name basis with the clerks of each county courthouse, let alone if you have a big county with multiple different types of courts. As for how you validate court orders now? You largely don't. That's why it's possible to use fake court orders to take down true but unpleasant information: https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/forged-court-papers-are-being-used-to-force-negative-stories-off-of-google-results/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/forged-court-papers-are-be...
      - willcipriano 5y ago
        Your local courthouse may not even do jury trials. It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants. If it's that important it can go in front of a district or federal judge, otherwise it can wait for business hours. Local police departments don't need the ability to engage a global surveillance apperatus at the drop of a hat. Stuff like that can be ran up the chain first.
        rosndo 5y ago
        > It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants You will be in trouble if you ignore a real warrant on this basis. Your lawyers will probably tell you that it’s better to just take the risk of possibly complying with a fake warrant.
        willcipriano 5y ago
        Who would you even give the data to if they are closed? Fax it over the the courthouse if you are concerned, or tell them it's at your location ready for pickup. If they are legit that won't be a problem.
        otterley 5y ago
        The data is collected by the LEO, not the court. But yes, you can fax it to the law enforcement office, whose number should also be independently verifiable.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      > These are murder and kidnapping cases. They're also "we think this kid is selling marijuana" cases. Law enforcement doesn't even need a warrant, they can just send a request for data and every company will just rubber stamp it and give them whatever they want.
      - otterley 5y ago
        This is wrong, and I know several legal process departments who will tell you otherwise, e.g.,: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelines-us.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelin... Please, post about legal issues only if you know what you are talking about.
  - salawat 5y ago
    They do not! And you'll be surprised how tricky it is to find local/state courts as someone with non-regular contact with the legal system. Even more fun would be the process of jurisdictional verification. All of which I'm sure the "Officers" would be more than happy to leave you be with your electronics and whatnot long enough to verify, right? Longer I'm alive, the more insane our system seems to me on a daily basis. Not sure if it's just cognitive decline or rapidly amplified cynicism as I dig into the signalling nightmare that is the interface between the executive and the judiciary system.
    - otterley 5y ago
      > And you'll be surprised how tricky it is to find local/state courts as someone with non-regular contact with the legal system. Name one court that signs warrants to service providers that can't be verified by spending 5 minutes doing some basic research, or that has a LEO office serving such warrants that also can't be verified.
      - salawat 5y ago
        So you go look up warrants on a regular basis? The topic at hand isn't whether a lawyer or a court officer can, but whether EVERYONE can in a timely manner such that if a police officer or LEO (or someone impersonating one, since we're talking zero trust) can be told to go sod themselves by a layman. Fundamentally this is a signal/info propagation problem. Processes take time.
        otterley 5y ago
        The people who process these requests, particularly at the large companies that possess such data, are typically dedicated to the task and possess the specialized knowledge needed to do so. They have often developed significant relationships with the law enforcement community.
        salawat 5y ago
        Do you know them? Do you have a connection that you could entrust with giving you a positive or negative answer as to whether the armed man with no sense of humor in the cop uniform outside is the real deal? I don't. Hell, even if I had a lawyer on hand, I doubt the lawyer would go "hold up.. checking the registries, yup it's legit"; rather they'd tell you to cooperate then maybe challenge outcomes down the road when the paperwork catches up. For most, the answer is they take it on faith anyone usurping that authority would have such a shit ton of bricks dropped on them, no one would be stupid enough to do it. Obviously, that logic is showing it's age. Frankly, if I were the courts/LE and found out this was going on, there'd be a new Public Enemy #1. Trust is too important.
IncRnd 5y ago
People were able to do this for years prior to Google's existence. I'm sure a social media company can determine how to find a court without Google.
grepfru_it 5y ago
Every court has a phone number, you can lookup the court independently and call the main line to get routed to the appropriate party
verve_rat 5y ago
Use a phone book?

How do you give them a call? Info given on the warrant? Which is fake? And so they fake the call back info?

by chipsa 5y ago

How do you give them a call? Info given on the warrant? Which is fake? And so they fake the call back info?

The court's own website usually has contact information that can be independently verified. This isn't that difficult a problem to solve.

sodality2 5y ago
Do courts all have domains under a government subdomain?
- willcipriano 5y ago
  All the courts that would issue these types of warrants will be easy to find. This isn't the sort of thing you do over a traffic ticket or shoplifting. It's not the court you go to when your neighbor owes you fifty bucks. These are murder and kidnapping cases. The people processing these warrants today are likely already on a first name basis with the clerks of these courts. Think about it, how do you validate any court order? Why is this only a problem now? I think it's beacuse they want to side step the judicial oversight process. Keep that intact, as the constitution requires, and this issue disappears.
  - kenniskrag 5y ago
    Do not forget that it is world wide. The gov has next to a signature a feature called apostille.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - chipsa 5y ago
    Local-ish courthouse for me only has a contact info for regular business hours. So if not in business hours, then what? There's ~3200 counties (or equivalent) in the US. There's no way to be on a first name basis with the clerks of each county courthouse, let alone if you have a big county with multiple different types of courts. As for how you validate court orders now? You largely don't. That's why it's possible to use fake court orders to take down true but unpleasant information: https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/forged-court-papers-are-being-used-to-force-negative-stories-off-of-google-results/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/forged-court-papers-are-be...
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      Your local courthouse may not even do jury trials. It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants. If it's that important it can go in front of a district or federal judge, otherwise it can wait for business hours. Local police departments don't need the ability to engage a global surveillance apperatus at the drop of a hat. Stuff like that can be ran up the chain first.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        > It doesn't do the sort of cases that require 3AM emergency warrants You will be in trouble if you ignore a real warrant on this basis. Your lawyers will probably tell you that it’s better to just take the risk of possibly complying with a fake warrant.
        willcipriano 5y ago
        Who would you even give the data to if they are closed? Fax it over the the courthouse if you are concerned, or tell them it's at your location ready for pickup. If they are legit that won't be a problem.
        otterley 5y ago
        The data is collected by the LEO, not the court. But yes, you can fax it to the law enforcement office, whose number should also be independently verifiable.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    > These are murder and kidnapping cases. They're also "we think this kid is selling marijuana" cases. Law enforcement doesn't even need a warrant, they can just send a request for data and every company will just rubber stamp it and give them whatever they want.
    - otterley 5y ago
      This is wrong, and I know several legal process departments who will tell you otherwise, e.g.,: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelines-us.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelin... Please, post about legal issues only if you know what you are talking about.
- salawat 5y ago
  They do not! And you'll be surprised how tricky it is to find local/state courts as someone with non-regular contact with the legal system. Even more fun would be the process of jurisdictional verification. All of which I'm sure the "Officers" would be more than happy to leave you be with your electronics and whatnot long enough to verify, right? Longer I'm alive, the more insane our system seems to me on a daily basis. Not sure if it's just cognitive decline or rapidly amplified cynicism as I dig into the signalling nightmare that is the interface between the executive and the judiciary system.
  - otterley 5y ago
    > And you'll be surprised how tricky it is to find local/state courts as someone with non-regular contact with the legal system. Name one court that signs warrants to service providers that can't be verified by spending 5 minutes doing some basic research, or that has a LEO office serving such warrants that also can't be verified.
    - salawat 5y ago
      So you go look up warrants on a regular basis? The topic at hand isn't whether a lawyer or a court officer can, but whether EVERYONE can in a timely manner such that if a police officer or LEO (or someone impersonating one, since we're talking zero trust) can be told to go sod themselves by a layman. Fundamentally this is a signal/info propagation problem. Processes take time.
      - otterley 5y ago
        The people who process these requests, particularly at the large companies that possess such data, are typically dedicated to the task and possess the specialized knowledge needed to do so. They have often developed significant relationships with the law enforcement community.
        salawat 5y ago
        Do you know them? Do you have a connection that you could entrust with giving you a positive or negative answer as to whether the armed man with no sense of humor in the cop uniform outside is the real deal? I don't. Hell, even if I had a lawyer on hand, I doubt the lawyer would go "hold up.. checking the registries, yup it's legit"; rather they'd tell you to cooperate then maybe challenge outcomes down the road when the paperwork catches up. For most, the answer is they take it on faith anyone usurping that authority would have such a shit ton of bricks dropped on them, no one would be stupid enough to do it. Obviously, that logic is showing it's age. Frankly, if I were the courts/LE and found out this was going on, there'd be a new Public Enemy #1. Trust is too important.

IncRnd 5y ago

People were able to do this for years prior to Google's existence. I'm sure a social media company can determine how to find a court without Google.

grepfru_it 5y ago

Every court has a phone number, you can lookup the court independently and call the main line to get routed to the appropriate party

verve_rat 5y ago

Use a phone book?