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Because there are people in the world who can wake up and have lost all money they had deposited in a bank. There are people who have to pay 20% transfer fees t

Because there are people in the world who can wake up and have lost all money they had deposited in a bank. There are people who have to pay 20% transfer fees to move money overseas. There are people who don't have the ability to open a bank account. There are people who can lose all their banked money if their government doesn't like them. The first world doesn't have these problems. Crypto is a bigger play than 'get rich quick'

afpx 5y ago
Where in the world is it common to lose all money deposited in a bank? And, why not just create better banks?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Where in the world is it common to lose all money deposited in a bank? The last round of deposit haircuts were in Europe [1]. OP may be talking about having a bank account frozen by a corrupt government. Though if crypto became widespread, those same governments wouldn’t have trouble coercing people into giving up their keys. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_failure
- Reubachi 5y ago
  Entire world in late 1920s, Iceland in 2008,Russia currently. Of course my examples are a bit tongue in cheek, much more nuanced and not as "Bank bad" as I paint them to be. But It's entirely possible for a bank run/economic downturn to wipe out a currency overnight. Does that mean crypto is the solution? It sure doesn't seem to be given cases like this (NFT/ETH being rugpulled from/by videogame devs). But I think that creating "better banks" can only mean "more government oversight", which leads right back to the original problem IE; economic/political factors having too much control. I of course keep all my money in the form of expired New Hampshire State Highway toll tokens.
  - _dujt 5y ago
    Currency takes on the value in which people believe it holds. Bitcoin is no different, and would instantly crash in the scenario of a worldwide financial system collapse. It’s juvenile to believe otherwise, and reaffirms the believe that Crypto is just a 21st century pyramid scheme.
  - aeturnum 5y ago
    > I think that creating "better banks" can only mean "more government oversight" I mean, a bank is just a financial business. Why wouldn't it be possible to improve "banks" but it would be possible to improve cryptocurrency companies (also financial businesses). What is the quality that gives you optimism that these new entities will be able to avoid the problems that you are worried about? Like, I get that the technology is decentralized and it's impractical to track down every node, but if the plan is to run an illegal business that's hard to shut down...you do not need blockchain to do that? And if the business can be legal that seems like it's about laws - not the tech.
    - ryukoposting 5y ago
      I suppose the other commenter doesn't really leave out the argument that "better cryptocurrencies" can only mean "more government oversight." I'm not really sure what a secure, generalized zero-trust system really looks like, from an algorithmic standpoint or a political standpoint. ETH is arguably the first large-scale attempt to answer that question, but so far it has unequivocally failed to do that. > but if the plan is to run an illegal business that's hard to shut down...you do not need blockchain to do that? It sure as hell makes it easier. Think about NFTs for a moment - they have the perfect recipe for money laundering: 1. Subjective market value (examples: paintings, pokemon cards) 2. High market value. 3. Relatively-unregulated bookkeeping system (examples: other cryptos, any transaction in a tax haven) 4. Trivial mechanisms for layering as a result of (3). 5. Easy (not necessarily cheap) liquidation (examples: casinos)
  - ryukoposting 5y ago
    I personally keep all my money in Culver's Scoopie Tokens. They're basically just forward contracts written by Culver's on behalf of the dairy industry. Highly liquid, as well.
- FrenchDevRemote 5y ago
  I'm not a supporter of cryptos. But most really corrupt countries. So about half the world, if not more. A large part of Africa, a large part of Asia, a good part of south America, some eastern European countries. If you want to create better banks, you'd have to pay bribes, millions/billions of dollars of bribes. So you're back to square one because you can't operate without charging huge fees or doing dodgy things.
- xtracto 5y ago
  Venezuela, Greece, Russia, Argentina, Mexico. All of these had government bank withdrawal locks at some point to prevent "bank runs". The general population who had their money in the corresponding currency got f*ed because they could not exchange from their local currency to something better.
- narrator 5y ago
  In Argentina, in 2002, they took everyone's dollars denominated accounts at the Argentinian banks, converted them to Pesos and devalued the peso by 75%. Everyone in the country now had 1/3 of the money they previously had. The country is arguably still recovering from that theft. Currently, people who left Ukraine are finding out that their Ukrainian credit cards no longer work. Some people who have bitcoin are still able to use that.
  - mplewis 5y ago
    What are Ukranians using Bitcoin for, specifically, right now?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - cdiddy2 5y ago
      A few examples. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-with-2000-in-bitcoin-on-usb-drive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-wi... https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/bitcoin-enables-ukrainian-refugee-escape https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/bitcoin-enables-ukrainia... https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-raises-54-million-as-bitcoin-donations-surge-amid-russian-war.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-raises-54-million-as... and a bonus from afghanistan: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707
  - acdha 5y ago
    Okay, now think about what would happen if Argentinians used Bitcoin. The same government would use the same powers to make the same request. Any business which accepted or made transactions in unapproved currencies would be punished. Any person keeping their money in a local exchange - as almost all Bitcoin users do given how expensive it is to do it solo - would have the seizure done automatically. The blockchain would be monitored by the government to identify non-compliant users — better hope you have perfect opsec and everyone have or will use it with does too! – and anyone whose lifestyle is incompatible with their declared income is going to be at risk, too. There just isn’t a technical fix for a political problem. If you live under the jurisdiction of a government there’s such a wide range of mechanisms available for enforcement.
- cesarb 5y ago
  We had something like that in the early 90s: in an attempt to combat hyperinflation, the government froze all the money above a certain small threshold on everyone's bank accounts (known as the "confisco da poupança", see the first bullet at https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plano_Collor&oldid=62623736#Medidas_do_Plano_Collor_I https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plano_Collor&oldi... for a bit more detail). Even today, rumors of something like that happening again are enough to make old people take money from the banks, even though the country's constitution was later patched to specifically forbid that kind of measure (constitutional amendment 32 which changed/added article 62 paragraph 1 item II, see http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/constituicao/emendas/emc/emc32.htm http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/constituicao/emendas/em... for the full text).
- alanlammiman 5y ago
  Brazil circa 92 when president Collor froze everyone's account in an attempt to stop inflation.
- Siira 5y ago
  > And, why not just create better banks? If someone is in a position to “create a better bank,” they aren’t one of those who needs it.
acdha 5y ago
> The first world doesn't have these problems. … but a lot of first-world guys are trying to get rich by selling systems which costs too much even for first-world users and doesn't solve those problems. If you live somewhere where your government will seize your assets, cryptocurrency won't help your physical assets and will only help anything else to the extent that you aren't worried about jail or worse for you or your family. You can't fix that class of problems with technology and it seems rather heartless to use those people's plight as a marketing tactic for a system primarily used by affluent people for speculation & money laundering.
car_analogy 5y ago
> The first world doesn't have these problems. Yes it does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Financial_blockade_of_WikiLeaks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Financial_blockade_o... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://www.eff.org/issues/financial-censorship https://www.eff.org/issues/financial-censorship

afpx 5y ago

Where in the world is it common to lose all money deposited in a bank? And, why not just create better banks?

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Where in the world is it common to lose all money deposited in a bank? The last round of deposit haircuts were in Europe [1]. OP may be talking about having a bank account frozen by a corrupt government. Though if crypto became widespread, those same governments wouldn’t have trouble coercing people into giving up their keys. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_failure
Reubachi 5y ago
Entire world in late 1920s, Iceland in 2008,Russia currently. Of course my examples are a bit tongue in cheek, much more nuanced and not as "Bank bad" as I paint them to be. But It's entirely possible for a bank run/economic downturn to wipe out a currency overnight. Does that mean crypto is the solution? It sure doesn't seem to be given cases like this (NFT/ETH being rugpulled from/by videogame devs). But I think that creating "better banks" can only mean "more government oversight", which leads right back to the original problem IE; economic/political factors having too much control. I of course keep all my money in the form of expired New Hampshire State Highway toll tokens.
- _dujt 5y ago
  Currency takes on the value in which people believe it holds. Bitcoin is no different, and would instantly crash in the scenario of a worldwide financial system collapse. It’s juvenile to believe otherwise, and reaffirms the believe that Crypto is just a 21st century pyramid scheme.
- aeturnum 5y ago
  > I think that creating "better banks" can only mean "more government oversight" I mean, a bank is just a financial business. Why wouldn't it be possible to improve "banks" but it would be possible to improve cryptocurrency companies (also financial businesses). What is the quality that gives you optimism that these new entities will be able to avoid the problems that you are worried about? Like, I get that the technology is decentralized and it's impractical to track down every node, but if the plan is to run an illegal business that's hard to shut down...you do not need blockchain to do that? And if the business can be legal that seems like it's about laws - not the tech.
  - ryukoposting 5y ago
    I suppose the other commenter doesn't really leave out the argument that "better cryptocurrencies" can only mean "more government oversight." I'm not really sure what a secure, generalized zero-trust system really looks like, from an algorithmic standpoint or a political standpoint. ETH is arguably the first large-scale attempt to answer that question, but so far it has unequivocally failed to do that. > but if the plan is to run an illegal business that's hard to shut down...you do not need blockchain to do that? It sure as hell makes it easier. Think about NFTs for a moment - they have the perfect recipe for money laundering: 1. Subjective market value (examples: paintings, pokemon cards) 2. High market value. 3. Relatively-unregulated bookkeeping system (examples: other cryptos, any transaction in a tax haven) 4. Trivial mechanisms for layering as a result of (3). 5. Easy (not necessarily cheap) liquidation (examples: casinos)
- ryukoposting 5y ago
  I personally keep all my money in Culver's Scoopie Tokens. They're basically just forward contracts written by Culver's on behalf of the dairy industry. Highly liquid, as well.
FrenchDevRemote 5y ago
I'm not a supporter of cryptos. But most really corrupt countries. So about half the world, if not more. A large part of Africa, a large part of Asia, a good part of south America, some eastern European countries. If you want to create better banks, you'd have to pay bribes, millions/billions of dollars of bribes. So you're back to square one because you can't operate without charging huge fees or doing dodgy things.
xtracto 5y ago
Venezuela, Greece, Russia, Argentina, Mexico. All of these had government bank withdrawal locks at some point to prevent "bank runs". The general population who had their money in the corresponding currency got f*ed because they could not exchange from their local currency to something better.
narrator 5y ago
In Argentina, in 2002, they took everyone's dollars denominated accounts at the Argentinian banks, converted them to Pesos and devalued the peso by 75%. Everyone in the country now had 1/3 of the money they previously had. The country is arguably still recovering from that theft. Currently, people who left Ukraine are finding out that their Ukrainian credit cards no longer work. Some people who have bitcoin are still able to use that.
- mplewis 5y ago
  What are Ukranians using Bitcoin for, specifically, right now?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - cdiddy2 5y ago
    A few examples. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-with-2000-in-bitcoin-on-usb-drive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-wi... https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/bitcoin-enables-ukrainian-refugee-escape https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/bitcoin-enables-ukrainia... https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-raises-54-million-as-bitcoin-donations-surge-amid-russian-war.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-raises-54-million-as... and a bonus from afghanistan: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707
- acdha 5y ago
  Okay, now think about what would happen if Argentinians used Bitcoin. The same government would use the same powers to make the same request. Any business which accepted or made transactions in unapproved currencies would be punished. Any person keeping their money in a local exchange - as almost all Bitcoin users do given how expensive it is to do it solo - would have the seizure done automatically. The blockchain would be monitored by the government to identify non-compliant users — better hope you have perfect opsec and everyone have or will use it with does too! – and anyone whose lifestyle is incompatible with their declared income is going to be at risk, too. There just isn’t a technical fix for a political problem. If you live under the jurisdiction of a government there’s such a wide range of mechanisms available for enforcement.
cesarb 5y ago
We had something like that in the early 90s: in an attempt to combat hyperinflation, the government froze all the money above a certain small threshold on everyone's bank accounts (known as the "confisco da poupança", see the first bullet at https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plano_Collor&oldid=62623736#Medidas_do_Plano_Collor_I https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plano_Collor&oldi... for a bit more detail). Even today, rumors of something like that happening again are enough to make old people take money from the banks, even though the country's constitution was later patched to specifically forbid that kind of measure (constitutional amendment 32 which changed/added article 62 paragraph 1 item II, see http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/constituicao/emendas/emc/emc32.htm http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/constituicao/emendas/em... for the full text).
alanlammiman 5y ago
Brazil circa 92 when president Collor froze everyone's account in an attempt to stop inflation.
Siira 5y ago
> And, why not just create better banks? If someone is in a position to “create a better bank,” they aren’t one of those who needs it.

acdha 5y ago

> The first world doesn't have these problems. … but a lot of first-world guys are trying to get rich by selling systems which costs too much even for first-world users and doesn't solve those problems. If you live somewhere where your government will seize your assets, cryptocurrency won't help your physical assets and will only help anything else to the extent that you aren't worried about jail or worse for you or your family. You can't fix that class of problems with technology and it seems rather heartless to use those people's plight as a marketing tactic for a system primarily used by affluent people for speculation & money laundering.

car_analogy 5y ago

> The first world doesn't have these problems. Yes it does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Financial_blockade_of_WikiLeaks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Financial_blockade_o... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://www.eff.org/issues/financial-censorship https://www.eff.org/issues/financial-censorship