5 ms·

This is the same situation as any in which there are leaders who set rules and followers who have no say. Structure and guidelines protect the followers. It's t

This is the same situation as any in which there are leaders who set rules and followers who have no say. Structure and guidelines protect the followers. It's the same as jobs where there aren't clear guidelines on time off, working remote, etc. Lack of structure is just freedom for leaders to become dictators. When there are clear rules and guidelines, then you're able to point to a violation and demand a solution. It's the whole reason society evolved laws in the first place.

kqr 5y ago
I know this is the idea, but do you know of any practical case where a bureaucracy of rules and guidelines have ever been (a) actually clear? and (b) not suffered from the same problems except now encoded in rules that are even more difficult to change? I mean, this entire thing about the grades is a great case in point: it's a bad system from the start, but it got encoded into rules a long time ago and now it's difficult to change it. You're suggesting adding more rules to fix it, but that just makes it even worse! There is a middle ground between chaos and full-on bureaucracy and it's "not giving single persons so goddamn much power over other people". With a healthy dose of democracy, you can collaborate on appropriate procedures without risk of enshrining unfair precedents into firm rules.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Yes, any of my several jobs that had clear rules and guidelines. I know what behavior is unacceptable and I could report a manager or director if I felt the need. I know I'm entitled to X days off a year and I have reason to complain if I'm not able to take that time off. I know how much my salary is and so on and so on. Regular jobs and schools will never be democratic because college students and employees don't have a direct say; at most they can encourage (within what limits their leadership allows) or quit. If you enjoy being in an unstructured environment, that's great. You would've loved my first job. I hate it. The more rules and bureaucracy a job has, the more I thrive. I don't care about democracy, I care about living my life as simply as possible, and rigid, plentiful rules are my preferred way of living.
  - kqr 5y ago
    Is your salary also determined by a clear function of years of experience? Do you know what your manager makes? Has anyone explained exactly how the number of days of vacation you get was determined? What's the process if you're unhappy with that? I get that it's very convenient to have fair and clear rules and formulae for everything. What I'm saying is that in practise, that's not actually what happens. What looks like clear rules, once you dig a level deeper, rarely is. In practise, the rules are almost always limited in their extent, arbitrary, and opaquely decided by the people in power in ways that disadvantage people not in power. Unfair rules are rarely changed or removed but generally just appended with more complex, opaque additional rules.
    - silicon2401 5y ago
      > Is your salary also determined by a clear function of years of experience? No, it's determined via negotiation, which is fine by me. If there was a clear function, I'd be even happier. > Do you know what your manager makes? No, and I don't care, I just care about making as much as I can get away with and knowing what to expect. If there was some formula, I'd be even happier with that. > Has anyone explained exactly how the number of days of vacation you get was determined? No, and I don't care if they rolled a set of dice to determine it, I just want as much as I can get away with, and to know how many I can use. If they > What's the process if you're unhappy with that? I suck it up or find another job, which I'm fine with > What looks like clear rules, once you dig a level deeper, rarely is. Which of my rules do you think are unclear? I can assure you I take off the time I'm entitled to and my paychecks so far have added up correctly. > opaquely decided by the people in power in ways that disadvantage people not in power. Unfair rules are rarely changed or removed but generally just appended with more complex, opaque additional rules. We seem to be discussing different points. In settings like university or work, I don't care how rules are determined, I just want them to exist and be clear. You seem to care a lot about how they're determined, which I literally couldn't care less about.
- macspoofing 5y ago
  >I mean, this entire thing about the grades is a great case in point: it's a bad system from the start Is it though? It's not like it's only used in one country. It's been adopted globally by pretty much every nation on earth. I think the reason for that is that there really isn't any other way to do education at scale. >There is a middle ground between chaos and full-on bureaucracy and it's "not giving single persons so goddamn much power over other people". Which is why this 'ungrading' method is so terrible. It gives all the power to the teacher.
macspoofing 5y ago
>Structure and guidelines protect the followers. When there are clear rules and guidelines, then you're able to point to a violation and demand a solution ... It's the whole reason society evolved laws in the first place. Exactly. This is a terrible system because it takes away all agency from student to understand by what yardstick they were measured against. The teacher just makes up a grade based on their personal feelings of what this student 'deserves'.

kqr 5y ago

I know this is the idea, but do you know of any practical case where a bureaucracy of rules and guidelines have ever been (a) actually clear? and (b) not suffered from the same problems except now encoded in rules that are even more difficult to change? I mean, this entire thing about the grades is a great case in point: it's a bad system from the start, but it got encoded into rules a long time ago and now it's difficult to change it. You're suggesting adding more rules to fix it, but that just makes it even worse! There is a middle ground between chaos and full-on bureaucracy and it's "not giving single persons so goddamn much power over other people". With a healthy dose of democracy, you can collaborate on appropriate procedures without risk of enshrining unfair precedents into firm rules.

silicon2401 5y ago
Yes, any of my several jobs that had clear rules and guidelines. I know what behavior is unacceptable and I could report a manager or director if I felt the need. I know I'm entitled to X days off a year and I have reason to complain if I'm not able to take that time off. I know how much my salary is and so on and so on. Regular jobs and schools will never be democratic because college students and employees don't have a direct say; at most they can encourage (within what limits their leadership allows) or quit. If you enjoy being in an unstructured environment, that's great. You would've loved my first job. I hate it. The more rules and bureaucracy a job has, the more I thrive. I don't care about democracy, I care about living my life as simply as possible, and rigid, plentiful rules are my preferred way of living.
- kqr 5y ago
  Is your salary also determined by a clear function of years of experience? Do you know what your manager makes? Has anyone explained exactly how the number of days of vacation you get was determined? What's the process if you're unhappy with that? I get that it's very convenient to have fair and clear rules and formulae for everything. What I'm saying is that in practise, that's not actually what happens. What looks like clear rules, once you dig a level deeper, rarely is. In practise, the rules are almost always limited in their extent, arbitrary, and opaquely decided by the people in power in ways that disadvantage people not in power. Unfair rules are rarely changed or removed but generally just appended with more complex, opaque additional rules.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    > Is your salary also determined by a clear function of years of experience? No, it's determined via negotiation, which is fine by me. If there was a clear function, I'd be even happier. > Do you know what your manager makes? No, and I don't care, I just care about making as much as I can get away with and knowing what to expect. If there was some formula, I'd be even happier with that. > Has anyone explained exactly how the number of days of vacation you get was determined? No, and I don't care if they rolled a set of dice to determine it, I just want as much as I can get away with, and to know how many I can use. If they > What's the process if you're unhappy with that? I suck it up or find another job, which I'm fine with > What looks like clear rules, once you dig a level deeper, rarely is. Which of my rules do you think are unclear? I can assure you I take off the time I'm entitled to and my paychecks so far have added up correctly. > opaquely decided by the people in power in ways that disadvantage people not in power. Unfair rules are rarely changed or removed but generally just appended with more complex, opaque additional rules. We seem to be discussing different points. In settings like university or work, I don't care how rules are determined, I just want them to exist and be clear. You seem to care a lot about how they're determined, which I literally couldn't care less about.
macspoofing 5y ago
>I mean, this entire thing about the grades is a great case in point: it's a bad system from the start Is it though? It's not like it's only used in one country. It's been adopted globally by pretty much every nation on earth. I think the reason for that is that there really isn't any other way to do education at scale. >There is a middle ground between chaos and full-on bureaucracy and it's "not giving single persons so goddamn much power over other people". Which is why this 'ungrading' method is so terrible. It gives all the power to the teacher.

macspoofing 5y ago

>Structure and guidelines protect the followers. When there are clear rules and guidelines, then you're able to point to a violation and demand a solution ... It's the whole reason society evolved laws in the first place. Exactly. This is a terrible system because it takes away all agency from student to understand by what yardstick they were measured against. The teacher just makes up a grade based on their personal feelings of what this student 'deserves'.