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I love what this prof is doing. I suggested it here in the UK [1] and was met mostly with terrified laughter. Wonder how he gets away with such a progressive st

I love what this prof is doing. I suggested it here in the UK [1] and was met mostly with terrified laughter. Wonder how he gets away with such a progressive stance? [1] https://www.timeshighereducation.com/campus/fear-zombie-student-apocalypse https://www.timeshighereducation.com/campus/fear-zombie-stud...

nicoburns 5y ago
I think it's a good idea, you just have to be really careful with: > “Will you tell me where I stand?” My comments on your work, and our conferences, should give you a good sense of how you’re progressing in the class. As an undergraduate student I had the experience of thinking I was doing just fine for an entire term (and to a lesser extent an entire year), only to find out at the end that I was doing so badly my professors actually wanted me to drop out of my course (despite my exam grades being ok-ish passing grades). I'm sure they thought they were communicating clearly, but they weren't. It probably didn't help that I spent my entire school career having teachers tell me I needed to put more effort into my homework only to get straight-A's in my exams. So similar messages in university didn't seem like a big deal.
michaelt 5y ago
> I suggested it here in the UK and was met mostly with terrified laughter. I read your article and I honestly couldn't tell whether it was serious, or whether it was some swiftian "why are we even bothering to give exams if it's impossible to fail? we might as well just graduate everyone on day 1 of term 1" which was actually calling for higher admission standards and fewer resits.
- nonrandomstring 5y ago
  > I read your article and I honestly couldn't tell whether it was serious Thanks for reading. It was indeed serious, though the concern was more about what I think is a financial abuse of students when they are recycled round and round a system that keeps giving them one more chance in order to take more money from them. The rest is an attempt to ponder solutions, and I kind of have to offer lots of angles for the piece to fit well with the publication. One of those, as you say, is that we offer a basic "pass" certificate just for completing the course. That's in keeping with student's expectations these days, since we commodified higher education and made degrees a "product", students expect to get something for their money even without effort. That's not an argument against meritocracy, because good students could still get a better degree grade if they want. Anyway just one idea to stop them being held hostage in a sunk-cost trap. And yes, another is to raise admission standards to a level where almost nobody who got in could fail, which is what some European institutions do.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    > though the concern was more about what I think is a financial abuse of students when they are recycled round and round a system that keeps giving them one more chance in order to take more money from them. Aside from changes in the fee structure, I would suggest that the better solution here is to let students retake individual modules without having to redo an entire year. This is something that most European institutions allow, and has the bonus that it is likely more accurate in terms of assessing a student's actual level than the current system.

nicoburns 5y ago

I think it's a good idea, you just have to be really careful with: > “Will you tell me where I stand?” My comments on your work, and our conferences, should give you a good sense of how you’re progressing in the class. As an undergraduate student I had the experience of thinking I was doing just fine for an entire term (and to a lesser extent an entire year), only to find out at the end that I was doing so badly my professors actually wanted me to drop out of my course (despite my exam grades being ok-ish passing grades). I'm sure they thought they were communicating clearly, but they weren't. It probably didn't help that I spent my entire school career having teachers tell me I needed to put more effort into my homework only to get straight-A's in my exams. So similar messages in university didn't seem like a big deal.

michaelt 5y ago

> I suggested it here in the UK and was met mostly with terrified laughter. I read your article and I honestly couldn't tell whether it was serious, or whether it was some swiftian "why are we even bothering to give exams if it's impossible to fail? we might as well just graduate everyone on day 1 of term 1" which was actually calling for higher admission standards and fewer resits.

nonrandomstring 5y ago
> I read your article and I honestly couldn't tell whether it was serious Thanks for reading. It was indeed serious, though the concern was more about what I think is a financial abuse of students when they are recycled round and round a system that keeps giving them one more chance in order to take more money from them. The rest is an attempt to ponder solutions, and I kind of have to offer lots of angles for the piece to fit well with the publication. One of those, as you say, is that we offer a basic "pass" certificate just for completing the course. That's in keeping with student's expectations these days, since we commodified higher education and made degrees a "product", students expect to get something for their money even without effort. That's not an argument against meritocracy, because good students could still get a better degree grade if they want. Anyway just one idea to stop them being held hostage in a sunk-cost trap. And yes, another is to raise admission standards to a level where almost nobody who got in could fail, which is what some European institutions do.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > though the concern was more about what I think is a financial abuse of students when they are recycled round and round a system that keeps giving them one more chance in order to take more money from them. Aside from changes in the fee structure, I would suggest that the better solution here is to let students retake individual modules without having to redo an entire year. This is something that most European institutions allow, and has the bonus that it is likely more accurate in terms of assessing a student's actual level than the current system.