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Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. I don't know enough neuroscience to know w

Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. I don't know enough neuroscience to know what the "right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex" is exactly but I know that you can over-ride/master it with reason and discipline. So I think there's something more to people allowing their better nature to slip under stress than simple brain chemicals. A colonel told me, that in the moment of most stress that's when the men need you most of all, and need you to retain dignity, self-sacrifice, and thinking about _them_ more than ever. When everyone is shitting themselves we revert to "I'm alright Jack" self-preservation mode. That's precisely the time when you need to dig deep and let _reason_ take the lead. Compassion/altruism etc is a personality structure, not a fleeting feeling, so it's encoded into your rational decision making. So a ton of training is about getting you to "snap out of yourself". The body moves in fast time, but if the mind can still stay in slow, measured mode, that's how the best comes out in some poeple under adversity. Hardballs who have no love for humanity will jump on to the tracks to save a kid from a subway train, because deep down they are actually masters of the empathy they've carefully hidden. I guess that tension between what you know you should do and what you find yourself instinctively inclined to do - is conscience.

SpodGaju 5y ago
> Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. Disciplined empathy is no longer empathy. And it is no longer virtuous. You are close to understanding, but keep going. Giving birth and nourishing, making without possessing, expecting nothing in return. To grow, yet not to control: This is the mysterious virtue. Chapter 10, Dao De Ching
- joshyeager 5y ago
  Rather than saying "You are close to understanding, but keep going", it would be more helpful to explain why you think that disciplined empathy is no longer empathy. I agree with the previous poster, but I'm curious to learn what you mean.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    Being vague as all get out is really on brand for advice from the Dao De Ching.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - SpodGaju 5y ago
      The vagueness of the Dao De Ching is not in the book, it is in reader. It is not myself that creates the Dao, but I can thank you for creating the Dao! When a superior person hears of the Tao, She diligently puts it into practice. When an average person hears of the Tao, he believes half of it, and doubts the other half. When a foolish person hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud at the very idea. If he didn’t laugh, it wouldn’t be the Tao.
      - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
        While I can appreciate a well crafted burn as much as the next guy, that was really taking the long way around.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        Not a burn, it was effortless empathy. :)
        1tao 5y ago
        Self is realized through selflessness :)
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      If you notice, much philosophy - generally defined, including religion - is vague. Much great art is vague. It may turn out that, unlike technical manuals, there is no value in spelling out everything. Either the reader engages or not and if they do, they don't need it spelled out - they create it in their own neural pathways, in their own mind, which is far more valuable than reading it. And if they don't, it doesn't matter anyway. It's not a new idea: From the Christian Gospels (Mark 4) Jesus tells the parable of the sower, ending, ""He who has ears, let him hear." And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that 'they may indeed see but not perceive, / and may indeed hear but not understand, / lest they should turn and be forgiven.'" And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."" From the Quran: As for the unbelievers, alike it is to them / whether thou hast warned them or hast not warned them, / they do not believe. / God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, / and on their eyes is a covering, / and there awaits them a mighty chastisement. Regarding allegory in Medieval philosophy: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/medieval-literary/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/medieval-literary/ The controversial and difficult question is why these medieval thinkers chose the allegorical form, and whether the text can be understood without its allegorical form. Avicenna tells us that what he purports to do by allegory is to convey one message to the "many" in sensible imagery they can understand, while conveying a different message to the philosophically minded few .... Neoplatonic and Christian writers ... [cited] the importance of not 'casting one's pearls before swine' ...
Trasmatta 5y ago
> Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control Numbing it was never a conscious decision, it was an automatic learned response to pain after years / decades. Now that I'm more conscious of what's happening, I can begin to work with it, but personality traits like this are generally highly stable and resistant to change. Which isn't to say there's nothing that can be done about it, just that's challenging (and in the process, you may be losing some of the benefits of that learned behavior).
- nonrandomstring 5y ago
  > personality traits like this are generally highly stable and resistant to change. Yes. Impossible to change some would say. So my message was wear it with pride. There's a philosopher called Kierkegaard who would say that you can't be "cured" of what you are. And since empathy is a gift, instead make it a superpower. That happens when you control it instead of it controlling you. Good luck, and I hope your gift brings you great things.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > personality traits like this are generally highly stable and resistant to change From one person's experience with other personality traits, it's both hard but just lots of hard work and determination. > and in the process, you may be losing some of the benefits of that learned behavior You will gain so much more, you can't even imagine now. You will look back and laugh at worrying about what you were going to lose. It's like forgetting how to run a super-marathon while learning that you have wings and how to fly.
idontknowifican 5y ago
- failedengineer 5y ago
  Right? What are the odds that GP would post "I don't know exactly what these brain regions do, but I know that these transgendered people who had fMRI showing their brains function much closer to their identified gender should simply stop being transgendered by overriding/mastering the differences with reason and discipline." I'm guessing zero... but because it's a study on empathy, it's totally a-ok to say "i don't know a thing about this, but since its not a problem for me, it shouldn't be a problem for you"
- cgriswald 5y ago
  Imagine having direct experience with these things, genuinely sharing your hard-earned experience of what works for you in the language you have available to you, and then some third-party who doesn't know anything about you misrepresents your statement and then tells you to "shut the fuck up about mental health problems you don't have."
  - idontknowifican 5y ago
    the OP has mastered their emotional response and will be fine by their own reckoning. i wouldn’t be so direct if the person hadn’t insisted they could handle it. i was in fact respecting their autonomy by treating them in the exact way they said they prefer.
- nonrandomstring 5y ago
  From TFA; "While anger makes us certain in our righteous indignation, anxiety, and surprise make us unsure of what’s going on and what will happen next. And when we feel uncertain, we tend to fall back on what we know to be true — namely, our own perspectives and feelings"
- strombofulous 5y ago
  "...and this is your brain on Twitter"
jlokier 5y ago
> you to retain dignity, self-sacrifice, and thinking about _them_ more than ever > That's precisely the time when you need to dig deep and let _reason_ take the lead I would say when self-sacrifice, thinking of others first is what's called for, that's actually empathy leading, at its most high-functioning. Empathy is taking the lead, but it's somehow a deeper kind, qualitatively distinct from day to day sympathy and personality. Sometimes a person you thought was rather heartless day to day, turns out to care for their buddies in such a moment, and you don't forget their actions. Of course it is empathy in concert with reason. Reason, intuition, skill, knowledge - and that measured mind - are all required in difficult situations, but without empathy would often lead to self-preservation mode. > deep down they are actually masters of the empathy they've carefully hidden. I like this. Yeah, that's what I mean.
- laurent92 5y ago
  > you thought was rather heartless day to day It’s the generalization that is wrong. People are not permanently one way. They fluctuate. They are infatuated at 20, struggling for money at 30, tired at 40, getting things in the correct order at 50, disconnected at 60… They make different conclusions about life. They may save a kid at 30 and not when they themselves have a family. Or the opposite. Generalization is erroneous.
treeman79 5y ago
Good sentiment. But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense.
- nonrandomstring 5y ago
  > Good sentiment. But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense. What you are alluding to sounds like abuse. As you can see in this thread I am being chastised for offering unsolicited, condescending advice about things I know nothing about - as if the vicarious snipers knew anything about my experiences or expertise, and as if my tone was out of place here. If your comment pertains to yourself I'd heartily recommend you read [1][2] below. People are using the word "numb". That could mean a lot of things, drugs, alcohol, or other indulgences. But there are specific dangers with the coping behaviour that clinicians call "dissociation". I wish you well. [1] https://www.survivingmypast.net/dissociation-protective-as-a-child-dangerous-as-an-adult/ https://www.survivingmypast.net/dissociation-protective-as-a... [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-savvy-psychologist/202011/how-manage-dissociating https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-savvy-psychologi...
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense. While I empathize with people using numbness, it's not true that it's the only defense. Hurt is something in you; it's your perceptual experience and you can control that. Someone hurts me because I let them. That doesn't excuse them, but takes away their power: I can look at it differently. It's not a panacea, but I've been through what you've talked about and not surrendering my empathy, not letting them destroy that part of me, was something I was determined to do. Compassion is a great too, your armor: Compassion for yourself, displacing the hurt from others, and for the abusers, which takes away much of their power.
ameminator 5y ago
I really don't sympathize with your viewpoint. Lots of research shows that it's hard to go against your natural state. You only have so much willpower - for most people it's a finite resource. In that context, your comment reads "Why don't you just decide to be better?". Do you think that the original commenter wanted to be this way? That it was a deliberate choice? Do you think it's that easy to change right now? I won't go on, but your comment came off as condescending - whatever your intentions are.
- thirdwhrldPzz 5y ago
  Our natural state is change even after death. You’re changing without even willing it right now, in ways you’ll need to adapt to sooner or later. All you seem to need to change is the grasp on the idea who you are now is eternal. Your comment comes off like the world must now stand still for you. Hard pass.
- RobRivera 5y ago
  it is a finite resource which is why meditation and training is required for mastery. people are capable of deciding to be better when they've the faculties and depth of experience and wisdom. Ever manage to troubleshoot a faulty canopy mid fall, or make a decision to cut the main and deploy the reserve parachute? you dont get to that mode of operation overnight.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    You're talking about skills, not willpower. Every study I've seen suggests that willpower is not trainable. Maybe it is, that would be great. Note, that you can train altruistic and empathetic appearing behaviors. So yes, even though you're all starving, the men eat first. Yes, you are going to risk your life doing X. Yes, you are going to tell everyone its okay and appear calm even while you're panicking.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      Willpower is not an effective way to deal with emotions, beyond the very short term - and then you will have blowback. Suppressing your emotions is a great way to have them take over your life and without you being conscious of it (you suppressed them!).
wolverine876 5y ago
I've noticed that at least some military officers, especially above a certain rank, seem to have this supernatural calm under stress. I read a story about a submarine accident, where some outsiders happened to be on-board, and they said that as the crew starting running around, the captain - who likely had just lost their career - got on the loudspeaker and said, in an almost friendly tone, 'hey, I know your hearts are pump, pump, pumping. Just remember your training and trust each other.' I've seen it in other places. What is the training or technique used? I'd love to learn more about it.

SpodGaju 5y ago

> Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. Disciplined empathy is no longer empathy. And it is no longer virtuous. You are close to understanding, but keep going. Giving birth and nourishing, making without possessing, expecting nothing in return. To grow, yet not to control: This is the mysterious virtue. Chapter 10, Dao De Ching

joshyeager 5y ago
Rather than saying "You are close to understanding, but keep going", it would be more helpful to explain why you think that disciplined empathy is no longer empathy. I agree with the previous poster, but I'm curious to learn what you mean.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  Being vague as all get out is really on brand for advice from the Dao De Ching.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - SpodGaju 5y ago
    The vagueness of the Dao De Ching is not in the book, it is in reader. It is not myself that creates the Dao, but I can thank you for creating the Dao! When a superior person hears of the Tao, She diligently puts it into practice. When an average person hears of the Tao, he believes half of it, and doubts the other half. When a foolish person hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud at the very idea. If he didn’t laugh, it wouldn’t be the Tao.
    - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
      While I can appreciate a well crafted burn as much as the next guy, that was really taking the long way around.
      - SpodGaju 5y ago
        Not a burn, it was effortless empathy. :)
        1tao 5y ago
        Self is realized through selflessness :)
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    If you notice, much philosophy - generally defined, including religion - is vague. Much great art is vague. It may turn out that, unlike technical manuals, there is no value in spelling out everything. Either the reader engages or not and if they do, they don't need it spelled out - they create it in their own neural pathways, in their own mind, which is far more valuable than reading it. And if they don't, it doesn't matter anyway. It's not a new idea: From the Christian Gospels (Mark 4) Jesus tells the parable of the sower, ending, ""He who has ears, let him hear." And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that 'they may indeed see but not perceive, / and may indeed hear but not understand, / lest they should turn and be forgiven.'" And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."" From the Quran: As for the unbelievers, alike it is to them / whether thou hast warned them or hast not warned them, / they do not believe. / God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, / and on their eyes is a covering, / and there awaits them a mighty chastisement. Regarding allegory in Medieval philosophy: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/medieval-literary/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/medieval-literary/ The controversial and difficult question is why these medieval thinkers chose the allegorical form, and whether the text can be understood without its allegorical form. Avicenna tells us that what he purports to do by allegory is to convey one message to the "many" in sensible imagery they can understand, while conveying a different message to the philosophically minded few .... Neoplatonic and Christian writers ... [cited] the importance of not 'casting one's pearls before swine' ...

Trasmatta 5y ago

> Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control Numbing it was never a conscious decision, it was an automatic learned response to pain after years / decades. Now that I'm more conscious of what's happening, I can begin to work with it, but personality traits like this are generally highly stable and resistant to change. Which isn't to say there's nothing that can be done about it, just that's challenging (and in the process, you may be losing some of the benefits of that learned behavior).

nonrandomstring 5y ago
> personality traits like this are generally highly stable and resistant to change. Yes. Impossible to change some would say. So my message was wear it with pride. There's a philosopher called Kierkegaard who would say that you can't be "cured" of what you are. And since empathy is a gift, instead make it a superpower. That happens when you control it instead of it controlling you. Good luck, and I hope your gift brings you great things.
wolverine876 5y ago
> personality traits like this are generally highly stable and resistant to change From one person's experience with other personality traits, it's both hard but just lots of hard work and determination. > and in the process, you may be losing some of the benefits of that learned behavior You will gain so much more, you can't even imagine now. You will look back and laugh at worrying about what you were going to lose. It's like forgetting how to run a super-marathon while learning that you have wings and how to fly.

idontknowifican 5y ago

failedengineer 5y ago
Right? What are the odds that GP would post "I don't know exactly what these brain regions do, but I know that these transgendered people who had fMRI showing their brains function much closer to their identified gender should simply stop being transgendered by overriding/mastering the differences with reason and discipline." I'm guessing zero... but because it's a study on empathy, it's totally a-ok to say "i don't know a thing about this, but since its not a problem for me, it shouldn't be a problem for you"
cgriswald 5y ago
Imagine having direct experience with these things, genuinely sharing your hard-earned experience of what works for you in the language you have available to you, and then some third-party who doesn't know anything about you misrepresents your statement and then tells you to "shut the fuck up about mental health problems you don't have."
- idontknowifican 5y ago
  the OP has mastered their emotional response and will be fine by their own reckoning. i wouldn’t be so direct if the person hadn’t insisted they could handle it. i was in fact respecting their autonomy by treating them in the exact way they said they prefer.
nonrandomstring 5y ago
From TFA; "While anger makes us certain in our righteous indignation, anxiety, and surprise make us unsure of what’s going on and what will happen next. And when we feel uncertain, we tend to fall back on what we know to be true — namely, our own perspectives and feelings"
strombofulous 5y ago
"...and this is your brain on Twitter"

jlokier 5y ago

> you to retain dignity, self-sacrifice, and thinking about _them_ more than ever > That's precisely the time when you need to dig deep and let _reason_ take the lead I would say when self-sacrifice, thinking of others first is what's called for, that's actually empathy leading, at its most high-functioning. Empathy is taking the lead, but it's somehow a deeper kind, qualitatively distinct from day to day sympathy and personality. Sometimes a person you thought was rather heartless day to day, turns out to care for their buddies in such a moment, and you don't forget their actions. Of course it is empathy in concert with reason. Reason, intuition, skill, knowledge - and that measured mind - are all required in difficult situations, but without empathy would often lead to self-preservation mode. > deep down they are actually masters of the empathy they've carefully hidden. I like this. Yeah, that's what I mean.

laurent92 5y ago
> you thought was rather heartless day to day It’s the generalization that is wrong. People are not permanently one way. They fluctuate. They are infatuated at 20, struggling for money at 30, tired at 40, getting things in the correct order at 50, disconnected at 60… They make different conclusions about life. They may save a kid at 30 and not when they themselves have a family. Or the opposite. Generalization is erroneous.

treeman79 5y ago

Good sentiment. But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense.

nonrandomstring 5y ago
> Good sentiment. But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense. What you are alluding to sounds like abuse. As you can see in this thread I am being chastised for offering unsolicited, condescending advice about things I know nothing about - as if the vicarious snipers knew anything about my experiences or expertise, and as if my tone was out of place here. If your comment pertains to yourself I'd heartily recommend you read [1][2] below. People are using the word "numb". That could mean a lot of things, drugs, alcohol, or other indulgences. But there are specific dangers with the coping behaviour that clinicians call "dissociation". I wish you well. [1] https://www.survivingmypast.net/dissociation-protective-as-a-child-dangerous-as-an-adult/ https://www.survivingmypast.net/dissociation-protective-as-a... [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-savvy-psychologist/202011/how-manage-dissociating https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-savvy-psychologi...
wolverine876 5y ago
> But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense. While I empathize with people using numbness, it's not true that it's the only defense. Hurt is something in you; it's your perceptual experience and you can control that. Someone hurts me because I let them. That doesn't excuse them, but takes away their power: I can look at it differently. It's not a panacea, but I've been through what you've talked about and not surrendering my empathy, not letting them destroy that part of me, was something I was determined to do. Compassion is a great too, your armor: Compassion for yourself, displacing the hurt from others, and for the abusers, which takes away much of their power.

ameminator 5y ago

I really don't sympathize with your viewpoint. Lots of research shows that it's hard to go against your natural state. You only have so much willpower - for most people it's a finite resource. In that context, your comment reads "Why don't you just decide to be better?". Do you think that the original commenter wanted to be this way? That it was a deliberate choice? Do you think it's that easy to change right now? I won't go on, but your comment came off as condescending - whatever your intentions are.

thirdwhrldPzz 5y ago
Our natural state is change even after death. You’re changing without even willing it right now, in ways you’ll need to adapt to sooner or later. All you seem to need to change is the grasp on the idea who you are now is eternal. Your comment comes off like the world must now stand still for you. Hard pass.
RobRivera 5y ago
it is a finite resource which is why meditation and training is required for mastery. people are capable of deciding to be better when they've the faculties and depth of experience and wisdom. Ever manage to troubleshoot a faulty canopy mid fall, or make a decision to cut the main and deploy the reserve parachute? you dont get to that mode of operation overnight.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  You're talking about skills, not willpower. Every study I've seen suggests that willpower is not trainable. Maybe it is, that would be great. Note, that you can train altruistic and empathetic appearing behaviors. So yes, even though you're all starving, the men eat first. Yes, you are going to risk your life doing X. Yes, you are going to tell everyone its okay and appear calm even while you're panicking.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Willpower is not an effective way to deal with emotions, beyond the very short term - and then you will have blowback. Suppressing your emotions is a great way to have them take over your life and without you being conscious of it (you suppressed them!).

wolverine876 5y ago

I've noticed that at least some military officers, especially above a certain rank, seem to have this supernatural calm under stress. I read a story about a submarine accident, where some outsiders happened to be on-board, and they said that as the crew starting running around, the captain - who likely had just lost their career - got on the loudspeaker and said, in an almost friendly tone, 'hey, I know your hearts are pump, pump, pumping. Just remember your training and trust each other.' I've seen it in other places. What is the training or technique used? I'd love to learn more about it.