3 ms·

Rural infrastructure is not necessarily equivalent to the impact/cost of the suburbs. Your average suburban house has municipal sewer/water, long natural gas r

Rural infrastructure is not necessarily equivalent to the impact/cost of the suburbs. Your average suburban house has municipal sewer/water, long natural gas runs and paved roads. A Rural house is more likely to have gravel roads, a well/septic and propane or electric heat.

oblio 5y ago
Yeah, but how many people are actually living this rural lifestyle? 5%? 10%? 15% at most? The vast majority of people don't live like that.
- jimmaswell 5y ago
  I have a septic and propane heat which is very common around here, and I'm in a small town, not even really remote at all.
  - pooper 5y ago
    I think they are talking about people like me who would like a cheap but modern home with reliable and inexpensive electricity, drinking water and sewage, gigabit fiber, paved roads to the door, and within driving distance to hospitals and Costco/Sam's Club. All with rock bottom taxes. Something has to give.
    - jimmaswell 5y ago
      I don't think all of that at once is realistic, yeah. Paved roads and sewage are probably least important to me. What's wrong with a septic system?
      - pooper 5y ago
        > Paved roads and sewage are probably least important to me. What's wrong with a septic system? I am getting older. I was born in 1987 so I am already 30+. With my sedentary lifestyle, I am pretty much guaranteed to have health problems well before I am eligible for Medicare and there is no sign that we will have medicare for all in my lifetime. Therefore, I can only afford healthcare as long as I work. Long story short, I cannot afford to be airlifted out of the middle of nowhere when (not if) I have a major health crisis in the next thirty years. If we can use a septic tank for sewage, we can also use solar (and batteries) for electricity, a state of the art in-ground heat pump for heating (and cooling) the house, satellite Internet for remote work. We can do all that but we still need paved roads. I think (please don't quote me on this) this is the thing that the stronger towns dude keeps saying. We can probably afford to build sparsely populated suburbia and rural utopia ONCE where everyone has half an acre of backyard and where you aren't woken up in the middle of the night because your neighbor decided to do laundry at 3 AM on a Tuesday. However, who is paying to keep up all these roads? > for example, a representative cost in 2014 for reconstructing an existing lane of [...] a collector street in a small urban area would have set you back $1.5 million per mile https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/1/27/how-much-does-a-mile-of-road-actually-cost https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/1/27/how-much-does-... I wonder if building out railroads would be cheaper than building out paved roads to everywhere. Thoughts?
        jimmaswell 5y ago
        Unpaved roads are really no problem at all if you have a suitable vehicle. My basic old 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee has never failed to take on any road I've thrown at it. I don't see any issue with state tax subsidizing roads a little anyway, especially for the farmers we depend on. Not sure about railroad costs but it would be great if passenger rail was invested in more again.
- AvocadoPanic 5y ago
  In 2007 the EPA estimated 50% of rural and 47% of suburban housing units were served by septic. https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=P1004624.TXT https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=P1004624.TXT
tstrimple 5y ago
You're discounting how much more of it there is. Living in Iowa, it's clear that rural areas cannot maintain their roads or bridges. By some measures, Iowa has the most structurally deficient bridges in the nation, with 90% of those bridges being in rural areas. Half of the bridges that are structurally deficient see an average of 35 cars across them per day. Iowa has around 14k miles of primary roads, and around 100k miles of gravel and dirt roads. Roughly 1/3rd of Iowa's population is rural at 1.1M people. Generally speaking, gravel roads cost more to maintain than paved roads because they need maintenance so much more often. Heavy rains and floods aren't uncommon out here, and they can be devastating to gravel infrastructure. So you've got the rural 1/3rd of the population depending on 7x more roads and 20x more bridges than the urban population. If those folks actually bore the full cost of maintaining their own roads, I'd be willing to bet many of them would decide their rural lifestyle wasn't worth quite as much as they claimed.
- 1234letshaveatw 5y ago
  You are arguing that it would be cheaper to pave every inch of remote god-forsaken farm backroads? Heavy rains and floods also do extensive damage to paved roads that can't be fixed by pushing some dirt around with a bulldozer. BTW, those bridges that service 35 vehicles oftentimes keep the more densely populated areas fed
  - brimble 5y ago
    > BTW, those bridges that service 35 vehicles oftentimes keep the more densely populated areas fed I assume if it's vital infrastructure to a couple mega-farms they'll happily take over maintenance. They're not gonna just shut down operations because some rural bridges on their preferred routes aren't maintained anymore. They'll either accept longer routes using a smaller set of still-publicly-maintained bridges, or solve the problem some other way, maybe by maintaining the roads themselves. Public spending drops, and one or both of food prices go up slightly and profits go down slightly. Seems fine. May well be cheaper, overall—forcing companies to choose between longer routes and maintaining their own roads seems like a good way to weed out routes that are being maintained at a net loss. Why do folks act like farmers are doing what they do out of altruism or something? "You owe farmers! They feed you!" Yeah, I do owe them. I owe them what I paid for the food. Right? If they decide I'm not sufficiently grateful they can stop. I'm not a "the market solves all problems" sort but I'm pretty sure it'd solve that one, no problem. Others will happily increase production to make up for the loss, because it's a market. Throw a fit that urbanites aren't subsidizing rural living & businesses enough, and stop producing, and someone with more sense will gladly take that market share.

oblio 5y ago

Yeah, but how many people are actually living this rural lifestyle? 5%? 10%? 15% at most? The vast majority of people don't live like that.

jimmaswell 5y ago
I have a septic and propane heat which is very common around here, and I'm in a small town, not even really remote at all.
- pooper 5y ago
  I think they are talking about people like me who would like a cheap but modern home with reliable and inexpensive electricity, drinking water and sewage, gigabit fiber, paved roads to the door, and within driving distance to hospitals and Costco/Sam's Club. All with rock bottom taxes. Something has to give.
  - jimmaswell 5y ago
    I don't think all of that at once is realistic, yeah. Paved roads and sewage are probably least important to me. What's wrong with a septic system?
    - pooper 5y ago
      > Paved roads and sewage are probably least important to me. What's wrong with a septic system? I am getting older. I was born in 1987 so I am already 30+. With my sedentary lifestyle, I am pretty much guaranteed to have health problems well before I am eligible for Medicare and there is no sign that we will have medicare for all in my lifetime. Therefore, I can only afford healthcare as long as I work. Long story short, I cannot afford to be airlifted out of the middle of nowhere when (not if) I have a major health crisis in the next thirty years. If we can use a septic tank for sewage, we can also use solar (and batteries) for electricity, a state of the art in-ground heat pump for heating (and cooling) the house, satellite Internet for remote work. We can do all that but we still need paved roads. I think (please don't quote me on this) this is the thing that the stronger towns dude keeps saying. We can probably afford to build sparsely populated suburbia and rural utopia ONCE where everyone has half an acre of backyard and where you aren't woken up in the middle of the night because your neighbor decided to do laundry at 3 AM on a Tuesday. However, who is paying to keep up all these roads? > for example, a representative cost in 2014 for reconstructing an existing lane of [...] a collector street in a small urban area would have set you back $1.5 million per mile https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/1/27/how-much-does-a-mile-of-road-actually-cost https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/1/27/how-much-does-... I wonder if building out railroads would be cheaper than building out paved roads to everywhere. Thoughts?
      - jimmaswell 5y ago
        Unpaved roads are really no problem at all if you have a suitable vehicle. My basic old 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee has never failed to take on any road I've thrown at it. I don't see any issue with state tax subsidizing roads a little anyway, especially for the farmers we depend on. Not sure about railroad costs but it would be great if passenger rail was invested in more again.
AvocadoPanic 5y ago
In 2007 the EPA estimated 50% of rural and 47% of suburban housing units were served by septic. https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=P1004624.TXT https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=P1004624.TXT

tstrimple 5y ago

You're discounting how much more of it there is. Living in Iowa, it's clear that rural areas cannot maintain their roads or bridges. By some measures, Iowa has the most structurally deficient bridges in the nation, with 90% of those bridges being in rural areas. Half of the bridges that are structurally deficient see an average of 35 cars across them per day. Iowa has around 14k miles of primary roads, and around 100k miles of gravel and dirt roads. Roughly 1/3rd of Iowa's population is rural at 1.1M people. Generally speaking, gravel roads cost more to maintain than paved roads because they need maintenance so much more often. Heavy rains and floods aren't uncommon out here, and they can be devastating to gravel infrastructure. So you've got the rural 1/3rd of the population depending on 7x more roads and 20x more bridges than the urban population. If those folks actually bore the full cost of maintaining their own roads, I'd be willing to bet many of them would decide their rural lifestyle wasn't worth quite as much as they claimed.

1234letshaveatw 5y ago
You are arguing that it would be cheaper to pave every inch of remote god-forsaken farm backroads? Heavy rains and floods also do extensive damage to paved roads that can't be fixed by pushing some dirt around with a bulldozer. BTW, those bridges that service 35 vehicles oftentimes keep the more densely populated areas fed
- brimble 5y ago
  > BTW, those bridges that service 35 vehicles oftentimes keep the more densely populated areas fed I assume if it's vital infrastructure to a couple mega-farms they'll happily take over maintenance. They're not gonna just shut down operations because some rural bridges on their preferred routes aren't maintained anymore. They'll either accept longer routes using a smaller set of still-publicly-maintained bridges, or solve the problem some other way, maybe by maintaining the roads themselves. Public spending drops, and one or both of food prices go up slightly and profits go down slightly. Seems fine. May well be cheaper, overall—forcing companies to choose between longer routes and maintaining their own roads seems like a good way to weed out routes that are being maintained at a net loss. Why do folks act like farmers are doing what they do out of altruism or something? "You owe farmers! They feed you!" Yeah, I do owe them. I owe them what I paid for the food. Right? If they decide I'm not sufficiently grateful they can stop. I'm not a "the market solves all problems" sort but I'm pretty sure it'd solve that one, no problem. Others will happily increase production to make up for the loss, because it's a market. Throw a fit that urbanites aren't subsidizing rural living & businesses enough, and stop producing, and someone with more sense will gladly take that market share.