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I recently left Google after spending a few years there. Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. So much so that shipping anything re

I recently left Google after spending a few years there. Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. So much so that shipping anything requires getting changes through a regulatory process to safeguard users. Google doesn’t do a good job of marketing its process. In some domains Google does explicitly use user behavior to drive revenue, so from the outside it becomes easy to spin changes like this as encroaching on user privacy, but I don’t see that here. I see something like a PM who is trying to surface some more functionality to users directly, and some engineers who spent far too long with lawyers to get sign off on this change. It may be fashionable to sensationalize product changes like this, but the truth is often more mundane. Edit: found a comment from the PM themselves in a previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30174304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30174304

seanw444 5y ago
While it may not be intentionally sinister, it's a precedent I can't agree with. Been on a journey to self-host as much of my stuff as I can to avoid this crap.
avgcorrection 5y ago
> It may be fashionable to sensationalize product changes like this, but the truth is often more mundane. A company which relies on user data for its revenue using user data seems like a mundane explanation to me.
titzer 5y ago
> Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. It's Orwellian doublethink. Google will go miles out of its way to convince itself it gives a damn about user privacy, when it obviously does not give a damn about user privacy. Google always finds a way to justify studying users like lab rats. For Google, they believe that they are inherently in your circle of trust and that they are allowed to know anything they want to know about you because they are by default, up to nothing but good. Google fundamentally does not understand that keeping things private means keeping things private from Google. If you aren't paying Google, then they are harvesting your attention, activities, preferences, and future spending habits to eventually sell to the highest bidder.
- judge2020 5y ago
  Google's entire business hinges on user privacy from everyone other than Google. If, tomorrow, either this Account Security scenario happened[0] or this South Park website happened[1] (everyone's internet history searchably by anyone), and it was done at the incompetence of Google, they would crumble overnight. They might recover within a year or two if they release a statement and fix it within a few hours or something, but it would be devastating and they would have to kiss their entire Google Cloud business (encompassing Cloud Platform and Workspace) goodbye. Once more, even for their ad business, they don't sell that data, they target based off of it. They would lose their competitive data advantage overnight if someone could pay them $100 per-user for every user's full advertising profile since they could then go behind Google's back and out-header-bid Google with lower margins. 0: https://youtu.be/y4GB_NDU43Q https://youtu.be/y4GB_NDU43Q 1: https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/TrollTrace.com https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/TrollTrace.com
  - slingnow 5y ago
    Are you kidding me? Crumble overnight? Have you not heard of the massive data breaches from the credit reporting industry? They got a minor slap on the wrist and everything is continuing as though it never happened. I don't understand how people can have such naive views in this day and age. Google is FAR MORE important today than a credit reporting company. They wouldn't go anywhere.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Nobody affected by those breaches willingly worked with the credit reporting industry. Everyone with a Workspace subscription willingly works with it and moving all the stuff Google Workspace offers off to Office 365 can be done relatively quickly by downloading all drive data, syncing user email, contacts, and caldav, and exporting Sheets/Gdocs as their Office file format counterparts.
      - InitialBP 5y ago
        There are numerous other breaches of companies that people continue to shop/work with literally weekly if not daily. Wikipedia might not be the best source but they have a list of companies that have had data breaches, but there is a huge list of companies that have had public breaches. Just to name a few and their sources that you people everywhere still use because the majority of people don't care about privacy or security. Apple - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jul/22/apple-developer-site-hacked https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jul/22/apple-dev... AT&T - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jun/10/apple-ipad-security-leak?INTCMP=SRCH https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jun/10/apple-ipa... Barnes and Noble - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/business/hackers-get-credit-data-at-barnes-noble.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/business/hackers-get-cred... Capital One - https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/29/business/capital-one-data-breach/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/29/business/capital-one-data-bre... There's plenty of other examples on here - but I agree with the parent, Google could implode and leak everything and the average person could not be bothered to change their emails or stop using Google.
JacobThreeThree 5y ago
The comment really doesn't explain why Google had to do an automatic opt-in.
testesttest 5y ago
You sure you were not just out of the loop? Engineers are often not included because they would object. You were only there a few years so I doubt you were privy to much of the politics.
- hackerfromthefu 5y ago
  Yeah, compartmentalized design.
codeflo 5y ago
Let’s say I give you a box with two lights to show its state, one green and one red. Currently, the red light is on. The red light will also be on tomorrow. In fact, people who have observed this box for years have only ever seen it show red. You might argue that this box is simply hard-wired to show red, but then I explain: No, your impression is wrong. I’ve built this box, and I’ve taken every possible measure to make it show green. How credible am I? And would you be more inclined to believe me more if I told you about my intrinsic love for the color green, and how I wired up the green light first, and how I have an entire committee of experts that has to sign off every design change to this box to ensure sufficient greenness? While it still shows, and only ever will, show the red light?
- salawat 5y ago
  Related phenomena: There are four lights! [Star Trek:TNG] 2+2=5 [1984] Gaslighting
  - meepmorp 5y ago
    Both the related phenomena you cite are fictional. Maybe find better supporting examples.
    - addingnumbers 5y ago
      They are fictional archetypes of established historical patterns, their reason to exist in pop culture is as shorthand allegories and extrapolations for common despotic behaviors that are already clear to everyone with a sense of history.
      - meepmorp 5y ago
        If they're archetypes of historical patterns, it should be trivial to find examples from history rather than fiction, no?
        salawat 5y ago
wmeredith 5y ago
Mundane != OK The banality of evil: https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-the-banality-of-evil https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-...
belter 5y ago
"The first step to data privacy is admitting you have a problem, Google" - 2022 https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/?td=rt-3a https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/?... "Android's Messages, Dialer apps quietly sent text, call info to Google" - 2022 https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/ "What Data Do The Google Dialer and Messages Apps On Android Send to Google?": https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/privacyofdialerandsmsapps.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/privacyofdialerandsmsapps... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30751751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30751751
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SSLy 5y ago
Is the GDPR-breaking consent flow also result of some bored PM?
ronnier 5y ago
google collects all your information and device info. They can also tie together all of your devices and accounts. They then share that info with the state and law enforcement.
johnklos 5y ago
See, this just doesn't pass the bullshit test. Look at Google's history and ask whether this could possibly be true. Could it? Really? Yes, but only if we posit that Google is hiding their nefarious activity from their own employees. Look at stuff like this: https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/ Is this the Google you left? If so, one really needs to ask is whether we should be even more worried about a company that hides its evil from its own employees than about a company that's just plainly shitty.

seanw444 5y ago

While it may not be intentionally sinister, it's a precedent I can't agree with. Been on a journey to self-host as much of my stuff as I can to avoid this crap.

avgcorrection 5y ago

> It may be fashionable to sensationalize product changes like this, but the truth is often more mundane. A company which relies on user data for its revenue using user data seems like a mundane explanation to me.

titzer 5y ago

> Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. It's Orwellian doublethink. Google will go miles out of its way to convince itself it gives a damn about user privacy, when it obviously does not give a damn about user privacy. Google always finds a way to justify studying users like lab rats. For Google, they believe that they are inherently in your circle of trust and that they are allowed to know anything they want to know about you because they are by default, up to nothing but good. Google fundamentally does not understand that keeping things private means keeping things private from Google. If you aren't paying Google, then they are harvesting your attention, activities, preferences, and future spending habits to eventually sell to the highest bidder.

judge2020 5y ago
Google's entire business hinges on user privacy from everyone other than Google. If, tomorrow, either this Account Security scenario happened[0] or this South Park website happened[1] (everyone's internet history searchably by anyone), and it was done at the incompetence of Google, they would crumble overnight. They might recover within a year or two if they release a statement and fix it within a few hours or something, but it would be devastating and they would have to kiss their entire Google Cloud business (encompassing Cloud Platform and Workspace) goodbye. Once more, even for their ad business, they don't sell that data, they target based off of it. They would lose their competitive data advantage overnight if someone could pay them $100 per-user for every user's full advertising profile since they could then go behind Google's back and out-header-bid Google with lower margins. 0: https://youtu.be/y4GB_NDU43Q https://youtu.be/y4GB_NDU43Q 1: https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/TrollTrace.com https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/TrollTrace.com
- slingnow 5y ago
  Are you kidding me? Crumble overnight? Have you not heard of the massive data breaches from the credit reporting industry? They got a minor slap on the wrist and everything is continuing as though it never happened. I don't understand how people can have such naive views in this day and age. Google is FAR MORE important today than a credit reporting company. They wouldn't go anywhere.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Nobody affected by those breaches willingly worked with the credit reporting industry. Everyone with a Workspace subscription willingly works with it and moving all the stuff Google Workspace offers off to Office 365 can be done relatively quickly by downloading all drive data, syncing user email, contacts, and caldav, and exporting Sheets/Gdocs as their Office file format counterparts.
    - InitialBP 5y ago
      There are numerous other breaches of companies that people continue to shop/work with literally weekly if not daily. Wikipedia might not be the best source but they have a list of companies that have had data breaches, but there is a huge list of companies that have had public breaches. Just to name a few and their sources that you people everywhere still use because the majority of people don't care about privacy or security. Apple - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jul/22/apple-developer-site-hacked https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jul/22/apple-dev... AT&T - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jun/10/apple-ipad-security-leak?INTCMP=SRCH https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jun/10/apple-ipa... Barnes and Noble - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/business/hackers-get-credit-data-at-barnes-noble.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/business/hackers-get-cred... Capital One - https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/29/business/capital-one-data-breach/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/29/business/capital-one-data-bre... There's plenty of other examples on here - but I agree with the parent, Google could implode and leak everything and the average person could not be bothered to change their emails or stop using Google.

JacobThreeThree 5y ago

The comment really doesn't explain why Google had to do an automatic opt-in.

testesttest 5y ago

You sure you were not just out of the loop? Engineers are often not included because they would object. You were only there a few years so I doubt you were privy to much of the politics.

hackerfromthefu 5y ago
Yeah, compartmentalized design.

codeflo 5y ago

Let’s say I give you a box with two lights to show its state, one green and one red. Currently, the red light is on. The red light will also be on tomorrow. In fact, people who have observed this box for years have only ever seen it show red. You might argue that this box is simply hard-wired to show red, but then I explain: No, your impression is wrong. I’ve built this box, and I’ve taken every possible measure to make it show green. How credible am I? And would you be more inclined to believe me more if I told you about my intrinsic love for the color green, and how I wired up the green light first, and how I have an entire committee of experts that has to sign off every design change to this box to ensure sufficient greenness? While it still shows, and only ever will, show the red light?

salawat 5y ago
Related phenomena: There are four lights! [Star Trek:TNG] 2+2=5 [1984] Gaslighting
- meepmorp 5y ago
  Both the related phenomena you cite are fictional. Maybe find better supporting examples.
  - addingnumbers 5y ago
    They are fictional archetypes of established historical patterns, their reason to exist in pop culture is as shorthand allegories and extrapolations for common despotic behaviors that are already clear to everyone with a sense of history.
    - meepmorp 5y ago
      If they're archetypes of historical patterns, it should be trivial to find examples from history rather than fiction, no?
      - salawat 5y ago

wmeredith 5y ago

Mundane != OK The banality of evil: https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-the-banality-of-evil https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-...

belter 5y ago

"The first step to data privacy is admitting you have a problem, Google" - 2022 https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/?td=rt-3a https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/?... "Android's Messages, Dialer apps quietly sent text, call info to Google" - 2022 https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/ "What Data Do The Google Dialer and Messages Apps On Android Send to Google?": https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/privacyofdialerandsmsapps.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/privacyofdialerandsmsapps... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30751751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30751751

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

SSLy 5y ago

Is the GDPR-breaking consent flow also result of some bored PM?

ronnier 5y ago

google collects all your information and device info. They can also tie together all of your devices and accounts. They then share that info with the state and law enforcement.

johnklos 5y ago

See, this just doesn't pass the bullshit test. Look at Google's history and ask whether this could possibly be true. Could it? Really? Yes, but only if we posit that Google is hiding their nefarious activity from their own employees. Look at stuff like this: https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/ Is this the Google you left? If so, one really needs to ask is whether we should be even more worried about a company that hides its evil from its own employees than about a company that's just plainly shitty.