5 ms·

Downvote me to hell, but all I could read, despite the good intention, is about taking advantage of emerging markets because of the opportunities they offer to

Downvote me to hell, but all I could read, despite the good intention, is about taking advantage of emerging markets because of the opportunities they offer to Western entrepreneurs. How is this not digital colonialism? What about fostering local entrepreneurs to develop a local healthy startup community? >> more altruists with experience working in the developed world should try this approach. This post should have been called "the Western man's digital burden"

recuter 5y ago
OK, move to Africa and foster local entrepreneurs and show us all how to do it better. I suggest Liberia as a starting point, godspeed. P.S. - Bonus points if you befriend some locals, show them this post and the service discussed, explain your position about how it is wrong and regale them with your politics. I'd love to see a video of that.
- user_named 5y ago
  On point.
- longtimelistnr 5y ago
  ? I don’t know what you’re trying to say if only furthering his point. Not everyone wants to be a cryptobro or a VC pet Emerging markets are emerging because they’re doing something right no need to offer them something “better”
  - recuter 5y ago
    No problem, I'll spell it out for you: Calling a person who is dedicating his life and actually spending time in Africa a "digital colonist who is doing it wrong" based on some vague gut feeling is somewhat unhinged. Not providing even a whiff of a suggestion as to "the right way" is not constructive. And doing all this whilst likely contributing absolutely diddlqysquat of value yourself is, to use your parlance, problematic. Topping it off with pointing out his alleged western origins is flat out bigoted. As for yourself, Star Trek-esque non interference is the morally superior path? You've tried nothing and you're all out of ideas? Certainly an interesting approach. Perhaps more of a peanut gallery ethos than a hacker one. You could explain how on earth cryptobros factor into all this or offer any shred of specific concerns and criticisms you have with regards to the OP but that would involve actually reading the article and making an effort and that's not in keeping with your moral philosophy of doing nothing.
    - camillomiller 5y ago
      The only unhinged thing here is the tone of your comments. I’m posing what I consider a reasonable doubt, especially due to the way the linked post is written. There is not one single bit of ethical thinking, just a sheer celebration of how easy it is to make money in countries you wouldn’t think of as profitable markets. You, on the other hand, have decided already that a white man’s proactiveness and alacrity is all it takes to free him from whatever colonial baggage we all INEVITABLY carry when we dab as Westerners into African affairs.
      - recuter 5y ago
        Sure bud, we are all white men with colonial baggage on this website. I'm slowly backing away now.
        camillomiller 5y ago
        You can be whatever, but you haven't declared yourself. Based on the general demographic of this website, it's fair to assume that you are both a man and a Westerner, or in some way a high-skilled privileged English native or near-native from a Western country, or Western-adjacent country.
        bobkazamakis 5y ago
        >unhinged >Sure bud, we are all white men with colonial baggage on this website. I guess some people live for the sigma but die from the ligma.
        drekipus 5y ago
        I love this comment, straight bussin'.
    - camillomiller 5y ago
      Also, please learn how to properly quote your opponent in an online debate. I never said anything along the lines of "digital colonist who is doing it wrong". That is your (wrong) assumption about what I wrote. I asked if what's described in the original post can't somehow be considered a form of digital colonialism. It's a rather important point for me, because when I discuss a systemic problem I'm strongly convinced we should avoid to call out individual behaviors, Twitter-storm style.
- bilbo0s 5y ago
  Liberia? Just curious how a place like Liberia would be considered 'emerging'? Not to slam Liberia, but even most Liberians would readily admit that there is an enormous difference between Monrovia and Accra. It's just reality. I mean, Liberians are trying to get settled in Ghana, not the other way around.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    It was likely a bad faith suggestion from someone whose only conception of Africa is lurid VICE documentaries.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
makerdiety 5y ago
The solution to your digital colonialism is free and open source software. :) It would demonstrate that venture capitalists aren't as smart as they think they are and it would prove that they're playing a losing game.
- drekipus 5y ago
  Open source software isn't a losing game..
  - makerdiety 5y ago
    No, venture capitalists are playing the losing game. By not using open source power.
oraoraoraoraora 5y ago
Just going to drop this here for a good laugh.https://hire-a-mzungu.biz/ https://hire-a-mzungu.biz/
- recuter 5y ago
  Can you also drop an explanation as to why OP deserves to be classified as a mzungu or is your classification automatic?
  - oraoraoraoraora 5y ago
    Don't know where this is going, just thought this website was bringing to light something that isn't discussed, in a very funny way.
    - recuter 5y ago
      It isn't unfunny and tokenism is surely a cross-cultural phenomenon in all of its many forms. I don't believe in PC culture and getting offended, discuss away. My impression is the guy in the OP is genuinely trying and isn't incompetent. If these guys are capitalizing on the very phenomenon you are lampooning by getting large VC sums injected into an emerging economy robinhood style... wouldn't that be... a good thing? That's what the blog post is flat out intimating. Perhaps I'm naive.
      - ramraj07 5y ago
        OP is genuinely trying in an adult version of busing kids to Haiti to build a hut.
blip54321 5y ago
My experience is that there are a lot of synergies to be leveraged. It's almost ridiculously easy to start a successful startup in a place like Nigeria or Ghana which either: - Providing things Nigeria excels at to Western markets (e.g. the same types of call center models India started out with a few decades back). - Launch services in Nigeria common in Western markets but not yet there. - Integrate Western and African models Those sorts of things tend to benefit everyone involved on both sides of the pond. Compared to, for example, making web frameworks, there is a lot more low-hanging fruit. Silicon Valley has an almost unlimited supply of people wanting to do startups for people like themselves. This leaves many other markets under-tapped. In terms of fostering local entrepreneurs, that happens naturally. Look at China, Taiwan, Korea, or Japan. They started with this model, at which point locals noticed they could do the same better and cheaper themselves, while retaining more profit. India is about half-way there now. It's very hard to foster entrepreneurship by telling. It's very easy by modeling. China, Korea, Taiwan, India, and Japan never turned into Western colonies, as you're predicting.
telchior 5y ago
I don't think you should be downvoted, it's a consideration that should probably always be somewhere in the back of people's minds when they go to some emerging market, considering history. Maybe in the same way that Germany asks themselves what their true purpose is when they're adding to their military budget. But it would be nice to see some suggestion of what the "proper" way to try to help out in the developing world if you're an altruism-minded tech person. Off the top of my head... You could completely avoid going there and stay at home, because anything you do is inherently corrupt and colonialist. Let's call this the Catholic option (original sin and all). OK, but "emerging" can stay that way for decades or just never emerge; whatever knowledge you have stays locked in your head. Maybe eventually, some Western corporation comes in with the product you would have built there, except it's all made overseas and only takes from the local economy. You could go there and teach coding and entrepreneurship. Great idea! Hope someone is paying your bills to do so (they're going to be higher than you think). But there's another issue here: there is a local environment. You can't just import your knowledge, it's kind of specific to where you're from and won't work. Everything from -- how do you interact with employees? (Believe me, Silicon Valley BS does not fly in the international workforce.) What are the buying habits and needs of your local customers? How do you deal with governments that range from inefficient to massively corrupt? At best, with no local experience, you're teaching skills that are not really as great as you think they are. You could join an existing local company. Whoops, nobody can hire you and/or there are none and/or you don't speak the language. Also, you don't have a work permit. Nobody is particularly interested in this weirdo with no local experience going around offering their knowledge. Honestly, I'm trying to give you a fair reading. I have traveled, I've started a (very small, still exists but isn't growing) startup in an emerging country, and it is just really difficult. Everything is different, and trying to adapt what you know is not a cakewalk. The capitalist model works because you have to get hands-on, figure out how to actually build something, and work through the very difficult puzzle of how knowledge actually is transferred. And in my personal experience, the big successes really aren't "Westerner barges into and takes over local market" anyway. There's usually some connection -- off the top of my head, look at Canva, with a second-generation Filipina-Australian building a massive business in the Philippines (with help from US and Aus investors / execs).
elforce002 5y ago
I'm 100% with you.

recuter 5y ago

OK, move to Africa and foster local entrepreneurs and show us all how to do it better. I suggest Liberia as a starting point, godspeed. P.S. - Bonus points if you befriend some locals, show them this post and the service discussed, explain your position about how it is wrong and regale them with your politics. I'd love to see a video of that.

user_named 5y ago
On point.
longtimelistnr 5y ago
? I don’t know what you’re trying to say if only furthering his point. Not everyone wants to be a cryptobro or a VC pet Emerging markets are emerging because they’re doing something right no need to offer them something “better”
- recuter 5y ago
  No problem, I'll spell it out for you: Calling a person who is dedicating his life and actually spending time in Africa a "digital colonist who is doing it wrong" based on some vague gut feeling is somewhat unhinged. Not providing even a whiff of a suggestion as to "the right way" is not constructive. And doing all this whilst likely contributing absolutely diddlqysquat of value yourself is, to use your parlance, problematic. Topping it off with pointing out his alleged western origins is flat out bigoted. As for yourself, Star Trek-esque non interference is the morally superior path? You've tried nothing and you're all out of ideas? Certainly an interesting approach. Perhaps more of a peanut gallery ethos than a hacker one. You could explain how on earth cryptobros factor into all this or offer any shred of specific concerns and criticisms you have with regards to the OP but that would involve actually reading the article and making an effort and that's not in keeping with your moral philosophy of doing nothing.
  - camillomiller 5y ago
    The only unhinged thing here is the tone of your comments. I’m posing what I consider a reasonable doubt, especially due to the way the linked post is written. There is not one single bit of ethical thinking, just a sheer celebration of how easy it is to make money in countries you wouldn’t think of as profitable markets. You, on the other hand, have decided already that a white man’s proactiveness and alacrity is all it takes to free him from whatever colonial baggage we all INEVITABLY carry when we dab as Westerners into African affairs.
    - recuter 5y ago
      Sure bud, we are all white men with colonial baggage on this website. I'm slowly backing away now.
      - camillomiller 5y ago
        You can be whatever, but you haven't declared yourself. Based on the general demographic of this website, it's fair to assume that you are both a man and a Westerner, or in some way a high-skilled privileged English native or near-native from a Western country, or Western-adjacent country.
      - bobkazamakis 5y ago
        >unhinged >Sure bud, we are all white men with colonial baggage on this website. I guess some people live for the sigma but die from the ligma.
        drekipus 5y ago
        I love this comment, straight bussin'.
  - camillomiller 5y ago
    Also, please learn how to properly quote your opponent in an online debate. I never said anything along the lines of "digital colonist who is doing it wrong". That is your (wrong) assumption about what I wrote. I asked if what's described in the original post can't somehow be considered a form of digital colonialism. It's a rather important point for me, because when I discuss a systemic problem I'm strongly convinced we should avoid to call out individual behaviors, Twitter-storm style.
bilbo0s 5y ago
Liberia? Just curious how a place like Liberia would be considered 'emerging'? Not to slam Liberia, but even most Liberians would readily admit that there is an enormous difference between Monrovia and Accra. It's just reality. I mean, Liberians are trying to get settled in Ghana, not the other way around.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  It was likely a bad faith suggestion from someone whose only conception of Africa is lurid VICE documentaries.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

makerdiety 5y ago

The solution to your digital colonialism is free and open source software. :) It would demonstrate that venture capitalists aren't as smart as they think they are and it would prove that they're playing a losing game.

drekipus 5y ago
Open source software isn't a losing game..
- makerdiety 5y ago
  No, venture capitalists are playing the losing game. By not using open source power.

oraoraoraoraora 5y ago

Just going to drop this here for a good laugh.https://hire-a-mzungu.biz/ https://hire-a-mzungu.biz/

recuter 5y ago
Can you also drop an explanation as to why OP deserves to be classified as a mzungu or is your classification automatic?
- oraoraoraoraora 5y ago
  Don't know where this is going, just thought this website was bringing to light something that isn't discussed, in a very funny way.
  - recuter 5y ago
    It isn't unfunny and tokenism is surely a cross-cultural phenomenon in all of its many forms. I don't believe in PC culture and getting offended, discuss away. My impression is the guy in the OP is genuinely trying and isn't incompetent. If these guys are capitalizing on the very phenomenon you are lampooning by getting large VC sums injected into an emerging economy robinhood style... wouldn't that be... a good thing? That's what the blog post is flat out intimating. Perhaps I'm naive.
    - ramraj07 5y ago
      OP is genuinely trying in an adult version of busing kids to Haiti to build a hut.

blip54321 5y ago

My experience is that there are a lot of synergies to be leveraged. It's almost ridiculously easy to start a successful startup in a place like Nigeria or Ghana which either: - Providing things Nigeria excels at to Western markets (e.g. the same types of call center models India started out with a few decades back). - Launch services in Nigeria common in Western markets but not yet there. - Integrate Western and African models Those sorts of things tend to benefit everyone involved on both sides of the pond. Compared to, for example, making web frameworks, there is a lot more low-hanging fruit. Silicon Valley has an almost unlimited supply of people wanting to do startups for people like themselves. This leaves many other markets under-tapped. In terms of fostering local entrepreneurs, that happens naturally. Look at China, Taiwan, Korea, or Japan. They started with this model, at which point locals noticed they could do the same better and cheaper themselves, while retaining more profit. India is about half-way there now. It's very hard to foster entrepreneurship by telling. It's very easy by modeling. China, Korea, Taiwan, India, and Japan never turned into Western colonies, as you're predicting.

telchior 5y ago

I don't think you should be downvoted, it's a consideration that should probably always be somewhere in the back of people's minds when they go to some emerging market, considering history. Maybe in the same way that Germany asks themselves what their true purpose is when they're adding to their military budget. But it would be nice to see some suggestion of what the "proper" way to try to help out in the developing world if you're an altruism-minded tech person. Off the top of my head... You could completely avoid going there and stay at home, because anything you do is inherently corrupt and colonialist. Let's call this the Catholic option (original sin and all). OK, but "emerging" can stay that way for decades or just never emerge; whatever knowledge you have stays locked in your head. Maybe eventually, some Western corporation comes in with the product you would have built there, except it's all made overseas and only takes from the local economy. You could go there and teach coding and entrepreneurship. Great idea! Hope someone is paying your bills to do so (they're going to be higher than you think). But there's another issue here: there is a local environment. You can't just import your knowledge, it's kind of specific to where you're from and won't work. Everything from -- how do you interact with employees? (Believe me, Silicon Valley BS does not fly in the international workforce.) What are the buying habits and needs of your local customers? How do you deal with governments that range from inefficient to massively corrupt? At best, with no local experience, you're teaching skills that are not really as great as you think they are. You could join an existing local company. Whoops, nobody can hire you and/or there are none and/or you don't speak the language. Also, you don't have a work permit. Nobody is particularly interested in this weirdo with no local experience going around offering their knowledge. Honestly, I'm trying to give you a fair reading. I have traveled, I've started a (very small, still exists but isn't growing) startup in an emerging country, and it is just really difficult. Everything is different, and trying to adapt what you know is not a cakewalk. The capitalist model works because you have to get hands-on, figure out how to actually build something, and work through the very difficult puzzle of how knowledge actually is transferred. And in my personal experience, the big successes really aren't "Westerner barges into and takes over local market" anyway. There's usually some connection -- off the top of my head, look at Canva, with a second-generation Filipina-Australian building a massive business in the Philippines (with help from US and Aus investors / execs).

elforce002 5y ago

I'm 100% with you.