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"Do not most free democratic countries practice 'secret ballot' voting specifically because not doing so caused all kinds of problems like voter intimidation?"

"Do not most free democratic countries practice 'secret ballot' voting specifically because not doing so caused all kinds of problems like voter intimidation?" I would argue a software project and a nation state is not the same kind of organisation. I am not involved in debian, so I would not judge what is the best system for them, but for example a group of friends making a decision on where to party, make sports, vacation, etc. - would secret voting here make sense? I don't think so. When people are not afraid to speak their mind - then a real consensus can be faster found. So I do not really think "secret voting" must be a standard. It depends on the organisation (and the size, people involved, etc).

dotancohen 5y ago
> but for example a group of friends making a decision on where to party, make > sports, vacation, etc. - would secret voting here make sense? "Hey Bob, if you vote for having the party at Dave's house, I'll not suggest to Mary that the cigarettes were anything but tobacco, whaddayasay?"
- pferde 5y ago
  Friendship over, immediately. (Group of friends is a completely different situation from what's being discussed here.)
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    That's not so easy when the wives are friends or sisters.
    - usrusr 5y ago
      What would be the point in pretending that there were any democratic principles involved though?
    - pferde 5y ago
      Why not? If someone tries to coerce me like that, they're no longer my friend, because I cannot trust them, nor feel comfortable around them anymore. But they can still be my wife's friend's husband, and that's how I am going to treat them.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  So you do have secret votes, when making group decisions with family and friends? Sounds impractical.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    I don't. But I am addressing the fact that there exist situations in which it would be beneficial.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Maybe, but if you have those situations with friends/family, then there is probably something else horrible wrong in the first place. (even though it might be common)
      - dotancohen 5y ago
        Agreed.
pja 5y ago
Voter intimidation can happen in volunteer communities too.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  Oh, for sure. Which is why I said, I would not judge on debian, as I do not know their dynamics etc.
goodpoint 5y ago
> would secret voting here make sense? I don't think so. When people are not afraid to speak their mind - then a real consensus can be faster found. You are swapping cause and effect and are implying that making voting secret creates fear. This is plain wrong.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  Maybe you misread something there? I merely stated, that there is no need for complex secret voting mechanisms - when the group is small and trusting. Or do you practice secret voting in decision making among your friends?
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    > Maybe you misread something there? I didn't. > Or do you practice secret voting in decision making among your friends? Now you are making a strawman. But I'll answer anyways. If I had a simple way to do anonymous polls with friends (e.g. an app) I would certainly use it because it would be a fun experiment. But this is besides the point. Social pressure exists amongst coworkers, volunteers, friends, families and even couples. A lot of it. That's why secret voting is useful in many environments even where people trust each other.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      "I didn't." So can you explain then, where I implyed "that making voting secret creates fear"? By stating, that there is no need for secret voting, when people are not afraid? If so, you might want to study basic logic (again). You cannot just reverse statements and implications and jump to conclusions There can be secret voting, with people scared to speak their minds and secret voting with people not afraid to speak their minds. And there can be open voting with people scared to speak their minds and open voting with people not afraid to speak their mind. I think secret voting is only useful, for situations with fear involved. No more, no less.

dotancohen 5y ago

> but for example a group of friends making a decision on where to party, make > sports, vacation, etc. - would secret voting here make sense? "Hey Bob, if you vote for having the party at Dave's house, I'll not suggest to Mary that the cigarettes were anything but tobacco, whaddayasay?"

pferde 5y ago
Friendship over, immediately. (Group of friends is a completely different situation from what's being discussed here.)
- dotancohen 5y ago
  That's not so easy when the wives are friends or sisters.
  - usrusr 5y ago
    What would be the point in pretending that there were any democratic principles involved though?
  - pferde 5y ago
    Why not? If someone tries to coerce me like that, they're no longer my friend, because I cannot trust them, nor feel comfortable around them anymore. But they can still be my wife's friend's husband, and that's how I am going to treat them.
hutzlibu 5y ago
So you do have secret votes, when making group decisions with family and friends? Sounds impractical.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  I don't. But I am addressing the fact that there exist situations in which it would be beneficial.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Maybe, but if you have those situations with friends/family, then there is probably something else horrible wrong in the first place. (even though it might be common)
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      Agreed.

pja 5y ago

Voter intimidation can happen in volunteer communities too.

hutzlibu 5y ago
Oh, for sure. Which is why I said, I would not judge on debian, as I do not know their dynamics etc.

goodpoint 5y ago

> would secret voting here make sense? I don't think so. When people are not afraid to speak their mind - then a real consensus can be faster found. You are swapping cause and effect and are implying that making voting secret creates fear. This is plain wrong.

hutzlibu 5y ago
Maybe you misread something there? I merely stated, that there is no need for complex secret voting mechanisms - when the group is small and trusting. Or do you practice secret voting in decision making among your friends?
- goodpoint 5y ago
  > Maybe you misread something there? I didn't. > Or do you practice secret voting in decision making among your friends? Now you are making a strawman. But I'll answer anyways. If I had a simple way to do anonymous polls with friends (e.g. an app) I would certainly use it because it would be a fun experiment. But this is besides the point. Social pressure exists amongst coworkers, volunteers, friends, families and even couples. A lot of it. That's why secret voting is useful in many environments even where people trust each other.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "I didn't." So can you explain then, where I implyed "that making voting secret creates fear"? By stating, that there is no need for secret voting, when people are not afraid? If so, you might want to study basic logic (again). You cannot just reverse statements and implications and jump to conclusions There can be secret voting, with people scared to speak their minds and secret voting with people not afraid to speak their minds. And there can be open voting with people scared to speak their minds and open voting with people not afraid to speak their mind. I think secret voting is only useful, for situations with fear involved. No more, no less.