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Ask HN: Is Apple low-balling me or am I an impostor greedy bastard?

TL;DR — Apple offered me USD $228k average annual total compensation (base + RSU + bonus), which is below the 25th percentile of ICT4-Senior according to Levels FYI (https://www.levels.fyi/company/Apple/salaries/Software-Engineer/ICT4/Canada/). Are they low-balling me or am I being too greedy? --- I am a Software Developer with over twelve (12) years of verifiable work experience as an individual contributor in Canada, US, and LATAM. University drop-out. I started in Web Development (full-stack), then Web Security (back-end and tooling) and, finally, Systems Programming in industries like InfoSec, Web Hosting, Gaming, Marketing, and Internet Services. I worked for two (2) Fortune Global 500 companies and have a passion for distributed systems. --- Hello, HN. I wonder if you can help me riddle this one out. I have been doing interviews at dozens of medium and large companies for the last couple of years, mostly because 1) I want to keep my impostor syndrome at bay, 2) I want to practice my English as much as possible, 3) a manager taught me the best time to interview is when you don’t need a job, and 4) LeetCode and take-home exercises are equally fun to me. Long story short, one of those interviews was at Apple (Canada). It was less technical than I expected, but still challenging, especially the one about Data Privacy and Security, which was the most entertaining interview I have had in years. Unfortunately, the offer is several thousand dollars below what I expected (↓2x). I feel like being a university drop-out and/or keeping a Senior Software Developer role for so long without jumping into management may have contributed to the low offer. I am not white, and I don’t think race or gender had anything to do with it. However, the last time I tried to negotiate the salary, they invited me to a video call and I was the only one with the camera on, which I thought was a bit disrespectful and disingenuous. Now, you may ask —Why didn’t you ask the (internal) recruiter?—. Well, I did. They said that the range for base salaries is limited by the 75th percentile they pay in the city my team is located, which is determined by market rates. Then, paraphrasing, —If we pay you the amount you expect, you’ll have a much higher salary than any of your team mates, and it will make it much more difficult to give you a raise in subsequent years.—. The answer didn’t make sense to me at all, but I did not have a good come back in English at the moment. Today, I think, why is it my fault that my team members are also underpaid? Is not that a sign that the company needs to re-evaluate their salaries too? And lastly, why would I worry about future raises if you can’t even pay what I expect today? What do you think HN community?

cercatrova 5y ago
That is lower than average, looking at Levels FYI [0]. People who have half your experience are making that much and more, to my knowledge. [0] https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple,Google,Facebook,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer# https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple,Google,Facebook,Micros...
- throwaway971608 5y ago
  True. Although, I am not comparing my offer with Apple salaries in the US, they are obviously much more higher. I am explicitely comparing my offer with Apple salaries in Canada (the link in the TL;DR of my original post). Notice that the recruiter said they strive to pay 75th of market rate, which, according to Levels.FYI, is USD $290k per year. If we are to believe Levels.FYI, Apple is low-balling me for approximately USD $60k per year, which is obviously peanuts for a $3 Trillion company. Meanwhile, U$60k is the equivalent of eighteen (18) years of minimum wage salary (accounting for inflation) in my home country. My family would be set for life if I could send them that money.
zaphar 5y ago
Can you get more elsewhere? I'm not familiar with the market in Canada so I don't have a frame of reference for comparison. But if you've been interviewing you should have an intuition for what you can expect. If your interviewing indicates you can get more at other places, then they are lowballing you. You are in the comfortable position of being able to walk away so your negotiating position is good as it gets. Apple is probably also in the comfortable position of being able to walk away too. This means that they can probably manage to find folks who are suffering from Imposter Syndrome and will happily take a lowball offer to work at Apple. One effect of that particular malady is that it reduces you ability to walk away from the negotiating table.
- throwaway971608 5y ago
  > But if you've been interviewing you should have an intuition for what you can expect. Indeed. I have talked to recruiters at companies like Stripe, Square and Facebook who say they are willing to negotiate up to U$480k to hire a person with my experience and skills. Unfortunately, the invitations were coincidentally scheduled during my on-call shift, so I missed some of the interviews, which resulted in early rejections. I can probably talk to them again, if Apple is unwilling to negotiate a bit more. Maybe I should do that now: get offers from one of them and tell Apple, because, as someone else said in this thread: “You need two offers before joining any tech company.”

cercatrova 5y ago

That is lower than average, looking at Levels FYI [0]. People who have half your experience are making that much and more, to my knowledge. [0] https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple,Google,Facebook,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer# https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple,Google,Facebook,Micros...

throwaway971608 5y ago
True. Although, I am not comparing my offer with Apple salaries in the US, they are obviously much more higher. I am explicitely comparing my offer with Apple salaries in Canada (the link in the TL;DR of my original post). Notice that the recruiter said they strive to pay 75th of market rate, which, according to Levels.FYI, is USD $290k per year. If we are to believe Levels.FYI, Apple is low-balling me for approximately USD $60k per year, which is obviously peanuts for a $3 Trillion company. Meanwhile, U$60k is the equivalent of eighteen (18) years of minimum wage salary (accounting for inflation) in my home country. My family would be set for life if I could send them that money.

zaphar 5y ago

Can you get more elsewhere? I'm not familiar with the market in Canada so I don't have a frame of reference for comparison. But if you've been interviewing you should have an intuition for what you can expect. If your interviewing indicates you can get more at other places, then they are lowballing you. You are in the comfortable position of being able to walk away so your negotiating position is good as it gets. Apple is probably also in the comfortable position of being able to walk away too. This means that they can probably manage to find folks who are suffering from Imposter Syndrome and will happily take a lowball offer to work at Apple. One effect of that particular malady is that it reduces you ability to walk away from the negotiating table.

throwaway971608 5y ago
> But if you've been interviewing you should have an intuition for what you can expect. Indeed. I have talked to recruiters at companies like Stripe, Square and Facebook who say they are willing to negotiate up to U$480k to hire a person with my experience and skills. Unfortunately, the invitations were coincidentally scheduled during my on-call shift, so I missed some of the interviews, which resulted in early rejections. I can probably talk to them again, if Apple is unwilling to negotiate a bit more. Maybe I should do that now: get offers from one of them and tell Apple, because, as someone else said in this thread: “You need two offers before joining any tech company.”