5 ms·

I'm also sorry if you confuse devops and development, been to companies like this and rightfully turnover rate there is what they deserve.

simulate-me 5y ago
I'm not confusing anything. I don't understand how you can write code without understanding whether or not it is secure, and whether or not it will scale. If you need scalability and security, then writing code without knowledge of those concepts is simply impossible.
- eftychis 5y ago
  Most developers and engineers though do not understand those topics. There is a difference between having breadth and a basic comprehension and being a security expert or a reliability and deployment expert. From personal experience, either the company is trying to be cheap and not hiring an SRE/devops until it is too late or misunderstands what they bring to the table. You need multiple disciplines working together to offer good, reliable and secure deployment of a complex app. This is true for a lot of disciplines: nobody understands everything in cryptography or graphics or networking. But most people have enough understanding to model how the other pieces connect. You have to treat a lot of pieces as black boxes. I think what is the important point I agree with the presentation is that things do not end with feature design and implementation is finished. Part of the feature is the feature to be made available. Feature availability is part of the product. But there is considerable cost with "you build you run it." That means you are chained to it and you can not move ahead: if you keep responding to incidents how are you different from the case of a CEO that does not delegate and tries to code, raise money and do customer support and administrative tasks. You find yourself never moving forward. Delegation and collaboration are important.
  - techsin101 5y ago
    also not just a matter of understanding concepts, it's a matter of familiarity with tools, sure a developer, and most other humans, could open documentation and read and figure out how to do something in 5 hours that would have taken a person skilled in devops maybe 3 minutes. Linux alone is a rabbit hole, add cloud, kubernettes, docker, basic database management, cron jobs, permission setting, certification renewal, etc.. the amount of commands and their variations gets quite large.

simulate-me 5y ago

I'm not confusing anything. I don't understand how you can write code without understanding whether or not it is secure, and whether or not it will scale. If you need scalability and security, then writing code without knowledge of those concepts is simply impossible.

eftychis 5y ago
Most developers and engineers though do not understand those topics. There is a difference between having breadth and a basic comprehension and being a security expert or a reliability and deployment expert. From personal experience, either the company is trying to be cheap and not hiring an SRE/devops until it is too late or misunderstands what they bring to the table. You need multiple disciplines working together to offer good, reliable and secure deployment of a complex app. This is true for a lot of disciplines: nobody understands everything in cryptography or graphics or networking. But most people have enough understanding to model how the other pieces connect. You have to treat a lot of pieces as black boxes. I think what is the important point I agree with the presentation is that things do not end with feature design and implementation is finished. Part of the feature is the feature to be made available. Feature availability is part of the product. But there is considerable cost with "you build you run it." That means you are chained to it and you can not move ahead: if you keep responding to incidents how are you different from the case of a CEO that does not delegate and tries to code, raise money and do customer support and administrative tasks. You find yourself never moving forward. Delegation and collaboration are important.
- techsin101 5y ago
  also not just a matter of understanding concepts, it's a matter of familiarity with tools, sure a developer, and most other humans, could open documentation and read and figure out how to do something in 5 hours that would have taken a person skilled in devops maybe 3 minutes. Linux alone is a rabbit hole, add cloud, kubernettes, docker, basic database management, cron jobs, permission setting, certification renewal, etc.. the amount of commands and their variations gets quite large.