4 ms·

I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist". While I never got a direct answer, I could infer or "read between

I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist". While I never got a direct answer, I could infer or "read between the lines" that they are not oblivious to the seemingly glaring contradiction to some of their solutions to racism, its just that when it comes to equality--the ends justify the means. Groups whom have previously enjoyed privilege with college admissions (whites and Asians) may endure some injustices and discrimination during this transition phase to equality. Other minorities dealt with this for so long, it's no big deal if some applicants with perfect SAT scores get cut because they are Asian.

csa 5y ago
> I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist" The most defensible explanation that folks who claim standardized tests are racist is that the range of scores are not approximately equal across races. In theory, a “fair” non-racist test would have similar ranges of scores for all races. There are a lot of assumptions baked into the argument, many with which I disagree, but it’s an interesting idea. Much of the data supports the idea that most of the differences in test scores are due to socio-economic status. When SES is controlled for, everything else (like race) just has a minor impact on scores Iirc, race is the largest contributor to variance when SES is controlled for, but folks within the same SES perform much more similarly than same race folks in different SESes.
- biohacker85 5y ago
  > ...the range of scores are not approximately equal across races. In theory, a “fair” non-racist test would have similar ranges of scores for all races. This is a good example of what I meant by "they are not oblivious to the seemingly glaring contradiction to some of their solutions to racism". If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion you have to explain why races don't have similar ranges while also accounting for the core belief that "we are all equal and race doesn't matter." The "socio-economic factors" argument is easier to argue and also more widely accepted, yet this doesn't explain why these folks focus primarily on race.
  - csa 5y ago
    > yet this doesn't explain why these folks focus primarily on race In my experience: - Race-based arguments seem to be easier for folks in general to understand than SES-based arguments. Race-based oppression is something that all Americans learn about in school, while SES-based oppression has been occurring non-stop since the start of the country, and it is not covered nearly as much in schools. - It’s easier to get social support, political support, and/or funding for race-based projects, while SES projects are tougher. - One possible reason the above two are true is that highlighting SES discrepancies reveals that the concept of American “equality”, even for the majority race, is a myth. This idea of Americans being equal and having equal access to institutions is, imho, an American value that many Americans hold dear and believe to be true, despite significant evidence to the contrary. Just my 2 cents…
- MagnumOpus 5y ago
  > When SES is controlled for, everything else (like race) just has a minor impact on scores This is sadly not at all the case. See the below famous charts about SAT results split by race and SES (proxied by either parental income or parental education). The lowest SES segments of the white/Asian population score as well as the highest SES segments of the black population. This then makes it obvious that colleges need to choose between either (a) equality of opportunity where SAT matter and that gets you more Asian kids and fewer black students or (b) equality of outcomes where extracurriculars and 'personality' matter and get rigged until racial balance is the same as in the general population, disregarding the maximisation of talent or ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Education2.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Educa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Income2.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Incom...
  - csa 5y ago
    Thank you for the charts. That said, I think two charts that try to summarize the data should probably combine the two if they actually want to measure SES rather than just SS or ES. I like this study and summary: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280232788_Race_Poverty_and_SAT_Scores_Modeling_the_Influences_of_Family_Income_on_Black_and_White_High_School_Students'_SAT_Performance https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280232788_Race_Pove... Note that there definitely still is a statistically significant difference based on race, but I am fairly certain it’s not as large as the charts you linked to seem to suggest. Specifically, I think it has to do with generational efficiencies in optimally using the opportunities that higher education presents. Simple examples: knowing the hows and whys of relationship cultivation in college, knowing how to avoid or navigate potential educational pitfalls, knowing how to optimally use university resources, etc.
    - csa 5y ago
      Choice quote which does a good job of summarizing what I have seen: “In addition, the differential direct and indirect effects of income on high school achievement and, in turn, high school achieve-ment on SAT scores may also be explained in terms of residential racial and economic segregation which are, through property values and taxpolicies, related to the quality of schooling. Moreover, the poverty effects reported here suggest the lack of social and educational resources in the larger community that are needed to supplement and complement the learning taking place in schools.”

csa 5y ago

> I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist" The most defensible explanation that folks who claim standardized tests are racist is that the range of scores are not approximately equal across races. In theory, a “fair” non-racist test would have similar ranges of scores for all races. There are a lot of assumptions baked into the argument, many with which I disagree, but it’s an interesting idea. Much of the data supports the idea that most of the differences in test scores are due to socio-economic status. When SES is controlled for, everything else (like race) just has a minor impact on scores Iirc, race is the largest contributor to variance when SES is controlled for, but folks within the same SES perform much more similarly than same race folks in different SESes.

biohacker85 5y ago
> ...the range of scores are not approximately equal across races. In theory, a “fair” non-racist test would have similar ranges of scores for all races. This is a good example of what I meant by "they are not oblivious to the seemingly glaring contradiction to some of their solutions to racism". If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion you have to explain why races don't have similar ranges while also accounting for the core belief that "we are all equal and race doesn't matter." The "socio-economic factors" argument is easier to argue and also more widely accepted, yet this doesn't explain why these folks focus primarily on race.
- csa 5y ago
  > yet this doesn't explain why these folks focus primarily on race In my experience: - Race-based arguments seem to be easier for folks in general to understand than SES-based arguments. Race-based oppression is something that all Americans learn about in school, while SES-based oppression has been occurring non-stop since the start of the country, and it is not covered nearly as much in schools. - It’s easier to get social support, political support, and/or funding for race-based projects, while SES projects are tougher. - One possible reason the above two are true is that highlighting SES discrepancies reveals that the concept of American “equality”, even for the majority race, is a myth. This idea of Americans being equal and having equal access to institutions is, imho, an American value that many Americans hold dear and believe to be true, despite significant evidence to the contrary. Just my 2 cents…
MagnumOpus 5y ago
> When SES is controlled for, everything else (like race) just has a minor impact on scores This is sadly not at all the case. See the below famous charts about SAT results split by race and SES (proxied by either parental income or parental education). The lowest SES segments of the white/Asian population score as well as the highest SES segments of the black population. This then makes it obvious that colleges need to choose between either (a) equality of opportunity where SAT matter and that gets you more Asian kids and fewer black students or (b) equality of outcomes where extracurriculars and 'personality' matter and get rigged until racial balance is the same as in the general population, disregarding the maximisation of talent or ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Education2.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Educa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Income2.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#/media/File:1995-SAT-Incom...
- csa 5y ago
  Thank you for the charts. That said, I think two charts that try to summarize the data should probably combine the two if they actually want to measure SES rather than just SS or ES. I like this study and summary: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280232788_Race_Poverty_and_SAT_Scores_Modeling_the_Influences_of_Family_Income_on_Black_and_White_High_School_Students'_SAT_Performance https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280232788_Race_Pove... Note that there definitely still is a statistically significant difference based on race, but I am fairly certain it’s not as large as the charts you linked to seem to suggest. Specifically, I think it has to do with generational efficiencies in optimally using the opportunities that higher education presents. Simple examples: knowing the hows and whys of relationship cultivation in college, knowing how to avoid or navigate potential educational pitfalls, knowing how to optimally use university resources, etc.
  - csa 5y ago
    Choice quote which does a good job of summarizing what I have seen: “In addition, the differential direct and indirect effects of income on high school achievement and, in turn, high school achieve-ment on SAT scores may also be explained in terms of residential racial and economic segregation which are, through property values and taxpolicies, related to the quality of schooling. Moreover, the poverty effects reported here suggest the lack of social and educational resources in the larger community that are needed to supplement and complement the learning taking place in schools.”