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Clear propaganda piece, I am afraid A couple of pieces of evidence: De-coupling is evidently a US driven initiative, starting with the Trumpian 'China Bad' rh

Clear propaganda piece, I am afraid A couple of pieces of evidence: De-coupling is evidently a US driven initiative, starting with the Trumpian 'China Bad' rhetoric starting from 2016, placing over 200+ Chinese firms from the prohibited list, setting up AUUKUS military alliance, Quad military alliance etc. China has massively benefited from status quo, no motivation at all to change it. Clear from Xi Jingping's speech at Davos where he cast China as a supporter of globalisation. It is precisely because China has closed the gap with the US via globalisation that the US is now keen to de-couple China from the system the US set up This piece - typical of the Atlantic (lemme guess Applebaum was the author?) - is recasting the 'world splitting into two' as the responsibility of China malfeasance, rather than US fears of loss of absolute hegemony Propaganda

nebula8804 5y ago
Seems like the loss of key industries is all but a foregone conclusion at this point. Example: EVs. US has lagged behind so much in this while China has got tons of EV companies that are about to launch in the US. Sure the US could ban them, the next day China will ban US auto companies and seize their factories. How will the big three survive losing the Chinese market? Isn't that the only major growth market? They will be forced to open up to the Chinese makers. Have you seen their cars? They seem very competitive. Only people who won't consider them are the towns being supported by auto jobs and the "rural" MURICA folks. Everyone else will eat them up. Repeat this for many other industries. I don't see how we can turn around from where we are at this point.
- hunglee2 5y ago
  like the analysis but I disagree somewhat. Taken to extreme, de-coupling with force repatriation of supply chain either directly to the US or to US controlled / US influenced countries. Also, developments new material science, 4D printing, hydroponic farming etc will reduce the dependency on the necessity of trade - which is fundamentally about the acquisition of resources which you could not provide for yourself. The course for a de-coupled future is probably set; the challenge for humanity is: are we able to co-exist without interdependence?
themacguffinman 5y ago
China has already broken the status quo as it does not engage in free trade on the same level as the West. It continuously engages in massive unreciprocated protectionism, IP theft, and hacking against foreign companies. It also repeatedly antagonizes liberal democratic values that citizens of the current hegemony hold dear as it pursues dissidents abroad (Operation Foxhunt) and organizes economic retaliation against foreign companies and celebrities and countries (like Lithuania) that just speak out against China's government policy. China openly threatens the independence and freedom of a liberal democracy called Taiwan. Such openly expansionist ambitions, threats to free speech, and support of neighboring imperial ambitions (ie. Russia) undermines the very foundation of global free trade, liberal democratic values cannot be completely separated from global trade. The status quo isn't just "globalization". Europe and North America and South Asia has global trade tensions but they never rise to the level of China's antagonism. The mere existence of global trade does not make China a genuinely cooperative player.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  >It also repeatedly antagonizes liberal democratic values that citizens of the current hegemony hold dear as it pursues dissidents abroad (Operation Foxhunt) and organizes economic retaliation against foreign companies and celebrities and countries (like Lithuania) that just speak out against China's government policy. The west does a lot of what you describe, just on a smaller scale. If you dare to go against Israel, which the US has deemed untouchable, you are met with economic sanctions, targeting from multiple intelligence services, online threats from supporters and laws placed specifically to stop your activities (anti-BDS laws). This is even if you deal with nothing but non-violent protest. There is no such thing as hard liberal democratic values, just a sliding scale of values that go up and down depending on the time frame and circumstances. Different eras of Europe/US/western nations have provided different levels of "liberal values" to different groups of people. With all this continued imperfection, what right does the West have to criticize China?
  - FrenchAmerican 5y ago
    I will certainly not defend the US (or France, my second country) for having been exemplary in the past. Both have ventured into their specific form of imperialism, at different times. Both have directed or contributed to coups against democratically elected governments (Central & South America, Africa). Both have helped infamous dictators to stay in power. However... China's imperialism is a real threat. I don't think that the citizens of the western quite imperfect "democracies" have just knowledge of the Chinese grievances against us. The West immensely abused China during the XIXth century. On all levels: economically first, but also culturally. The resentment of the Chinese people is both very vivid and grounded on very factual facts. Putin has shown where resentment leads. We thought that he would not invade Ukraine for the benefits were low in comparison to risks, e.g. large sanctions. But he did nevertheless, for Ukraine is - in his view - a central issue in the identity of Russia. When we sacked the "Old Summer Palace" during the opiums wars, it's as if the Louvre in Paris, the Palace in Versailles and the castle of Chambord had been voluntarily plundered and destroyed. The Opium Wars meant we put millions of Chinese into addiction in order to counterbalance our commercial balance. Putin's claims on Ukraine have no historical grounds, whatever he and many Russians think. But Chinese resentment towards the West are quite understandable. Furthermore, Japan devastated China between 1937 and 1945 - with a rare level of atrocity. The Cold War has now made Japan an ally of the US, and of the West more generally. Most people in the West have no clue about that part of History. It's not taught at school, or in passing. Which makes it even worse for many Chinese: not even knowing what our countries did to them is the worse insult possible. We also don't push Japan to acknowledge their outrageous war crimes. If we want peace with China in the coming 50 years, we should start acknowledging what we did and ask for forgiveness - e.g. demonstrating our respect. Being able to apologize with very official, large ceremonies is not a sign of weakness. And since this must not be taken as such, we need to be military ready, to be economically ready (not depending on China industry as we do nowadays) and socially ready. By socially, I mean to be capable as societies to endure tough times. The invasion of Ukraine has shown that we don't care enough about democracy to stop the flow of petrol and gas from Russia. The EU pays Russia 600 million euros * per day* for it. We are not ready to go through an economic recession in order to save Ukraine. We are weak. We provide a big amount of weapons - but that's not a huge one. No planes, no tanks. We even stop ex-army volunteers to join the Ukrainian army! We could perfectly give temporary vacations to volunteers from our armies, as long as they disperse and go there by their own means. So we need to stand up against Putin much more clearly than we do, just keeping the few legal appearances to avoid OTAN's country to be implied as an official belligerent. We can do much more and we don't. We could decide to limit the temperature in our homes to 16ºC. But our politicians are no Churchills. China is looking. China wants revenge and I find it quite understandable - even if I despise violence to solve issues. We should prove our strength, our will to keep up collectively with China and its vassals (Russia becoming one of them very soon). And ask the Chinese people for forgiveness for our past behaviors, by providing all the symbolic reparations they rightly deserve. True adults know when to apologize and when a bully needs to be stopped. Our Western politicians have not enough courage for any of these necessary acts. Let's hope that the coming war with China will stay "cold". Or that a common enemy appears to force us to cooperate. Aliens would be fun but, well, improbable... :-) Climate dereliction has the potential to be bad enough to collectively get our priorities right. For sure, nor our politicians neither the Chinese are doing what is necessary, so huge "natural" disasters are on their way. Like Greta Thunberg repeats: that's what Science predicts, not a point of view of mine.

nebula8804 5y ago

Seems like the loss of key industries is all but a foregone conclusion at this point. Example: EVs. US has lagged behind so much in this while China has got tons of EV companies that are about to launch in the US. Sure the US could ban them, the next day China will ban US auto companies and seize their factories. How will the big three survive losing the Chinese market? Isn't that the only major growth market? They will be forced to open up to the Chinese makers. Have you seen their cars? They seem very competitive. Only people who won't consider them are the towns being supported by auto jobs and the "rural" MURICA folks. Everyone else will eat them up. Repeat this for many other industries. I don't see how we can turn around from where we are at this point.

hunglee2 5y ago
like the analysis but I disagree somewhat. Taken to extreme, de-coupling with force repatriation of supply chain either directly to the US or to US controlled / US influenced countries. Also, developments new material science, 4D printing, hydroponic farming etc will reduce the dependency on the necessity of trade - which is fundamentally about the acquisition of resources which you could not provide for yourself. The course for a de-coupled future is probably set; the challenge for humanity is: are we able to co-exist without interdependence?

themacguffinman 5y ago

China has already broken the status quo as it does not engage in free trade on the same level as the West. It continuously engages in massive unreciprocated protectionism, IP theft, and hacking against foreign companies. It also repeatedly antagonizes liberal democratic values that citizens of the current hegemony hold dear as it pursues dissidents abroad (Operation Foxhunt) and organizes economic retaliation against foreign companies and celebrities and countries (like Lithuania) that just speak out against China's government policy. China openly threatens the independence and freedom of a liberal democracy called Taiwan. Such openly expansionist ambitions, threats to free speech, and support of neighboring imperial ambitions (ie. Russia) undermines the very foundation of global free trade, liberal democratic values cannot be completely separated from global trade. The status quo isn't just "globalization". Europe and North America and South Asia has global trade tensions but they never rise to the level of China's antagonism. The mere existence of global trade does not make China a genuinely cooperative player.

nebula8804 5y ago
>It also repeatedly antagonizes liberal democratic values that citizens of the current hegemony hold dear as it pursues dissidents abroad (Operation Foxhunt) and organizes economic retaliation against foreign companies and celebrities and countries (like Lithuania) that just speak out against China's government policy. The west does a lot of what you describe, just on a smaller scale. If you dare to go against Israel, which the US has deemed untouchable, you are met with economic sanctions, targeting from multiple intelligence services, online threats from supporters and laws placed specifically to stop your activities (anti-BDS laws). This is even if you deal with nothing but non-violent protest. There is no such thing as hard liberal democratic values, just a sliding scale of values that go up and down depending on the time frame and circumstances. Different eras of Europe/US/western nations have provided different levels of "liberal values" to different groups of people. With all this continued imperfection, what right does the West have to criticize China?
- FrenchAmerican 5y ago
  I will certainly not defend the US (or France, my second country) for having been exemplary in the past. Both have ventured into their specific form of imperialism, at different times. Both have directed or contributed to coups against democratically elected governments (Central & South America, Africa). Both have helped infamous dictators to stay in power. However... China's imperialism is a real threat. I don't think that the citizens of the western quite imperfect "democracies" have just knowledge of the Chinese grievances against us. The West immensely abused China during the XIXth century. On all levels: economically first, but also culturally. The resentment of the Chinese people is both very vivid and grounded on very factual facts. Putin has shown where resentment leads. We thought that he would not invade Ukraine for the benefits were low in comparison to risks, e.g. large sanctions. But he did nevertheless, for Ukraine is - in his view - a central issue in the identity of Russia. When we sacked the "Old Summer Palace" during the opiums wars, it's as if the Louvre in Paris, the Palace in Versailles and the castle of Chambord had been voluntarily plundered and destroyed. The Opium Wars meant we put millions of Chinese into addiction in order to counterbalance our commercial balance. Putin's claims on Ukraine have no historical grounds, whatever he and many Russians think. But Chinese resentment towards the West are quite understandable. Furthermore, Japan devastated China between 1937 and 1945 - with a rare level of atrocity. The Cold War has now made Japan an ally of the US, and of the West more generally. Most people in the West have no clue about that part of History. It's not taught at school, or in passing. Which makes it even worse for many Chinese: not even knowing what our countries did to them is the worse insult possible. We also don't push Japan to acknowledge their outrageous war crimes. If we want peace with China in the coming 50 years, we should start acknowledging what we did and ask for forgiveness - e.g. demonstrating our respect. Being able to apologize with very official, large ceremonies is not a sign of weakness. And since this must not be taken as such, we need to be military ready, to be economically ready (not depending on China industry as we do nowadays) and socially ready. By socially, I mean to be capable as societies to endure tough times. The invasion of Ukraine has shown that we don't care enough about democracy to stop the flow of petrol and gas from Russia. The EU pays Russia 600 million euros * per day* for it. We are not ready to go through an economic recession in order to save Ukraine. We are weak. We provide a big amount of weapons - but that's not a huge one. No planes, no tanks. We even stop ex-army volunteers to join the Ukrainian army! We could perfectly give temporary vacations to volunteers from our armies, as long as they disperse and go there by their own means. So we need to stand up against Putin much more clearly than we do, just keeping the few legal appearances to avoid OTAN's country to be implied as an official belligerent. We can do much more and we don't. We could decide to limit the temperature in our homes to 16ºC. But our politicians are no Churchills. China is looking. China wants revenge and I find it quite understandable - even if I despise violence to solve issues. We should prove our strength, our will to keep up collectively with China and its vassals (Russia becoming one of them very soon). And ask the Chinese people for forgiveness for our past behaviors, by providing all the symbolic reparations they rightly deserve. True adults know when to apologize and when a bully needs to be stopped. Our Western politicians have not enough courage for any of these necessary acts. Let's hope that the coming war with China will stay "cold". Or that a common enemy appears to force us to cooperate. Aliens would be fun but, well, improbable... :-) Climate dereliction has the potential to be bad enough to collectively get our priorities right. For sure, nor our politicians neither the Chinese are doing what is necessary, so huge "natural" disasters are on their way. Like Greta Thunberg repeats: that's what Science predicts, not a point of view of mine.