4 ms·

my guess is if they did everything via in person discussions and didnt leave a paper trail of messages, they likely wouldnt have been caught

by ffggvv 5y ago

paulpauper 5y ago
they almost always get caught. The SEC is so good at detecting this stuff especially when people do it many times thinking they got away with it the first few times. .
- rosndo 5y ago
  Can you find any sources to support this claim? It is easy to find sources claiming the opposite. And no, it’s really difficult for SEC to detect any but the most basic forms of insider trading. Try to apply some adversarial thinking and envision a situation where you want to insider trade, but don’t want to get caught.
  - paulpauper 5y ago
    I have seen cases where people get caught even after using many middlemen/intermediaries involving seemingly multiple unrelated contacts, breaking the trades up into tiny batches, using encrypted chat services, making normal trades and trying to mix the illicit trades in. >Try to apply some adversarial thinking and envision a situation where you want to insider trade, but don’t want to get caught. Criminals take great efforts to not be caught and still are.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      > Criminals take great efforts to not be caught and still are. Insider trading is not like other crimes. Consider the reasons why it is criminalized, which have been discussed elsewhere under this post.
refurb 5y ago
Matt Levine wrote some good articles on how people get busted. The main point is you can't buy or sell securities without identifying yourself. So when someone opens a new account and buy out-of-the-money call options that expire a few days after an earnings announcement it's not hard for the SEC to flag all those. Then all they have to do is look up that person and see if they have any connection to the company. They can look at who you are connected to on LinkedIn, who you live with, where your family is employed. Then they come to that person and ask them a question that seems innocuous "Have you ever discussed Company X with <insert name>". If you lie, then you've already committed a felony when they get your text records or email or Whatsapp.
- nullc 5y ago
  I think an element people miss is that to make more than negligible amounts of money from this stuff, you generally need to invest large amounts or or make the trades many time, or both. ... and this generates a pretty strong signal. "Hmm. This guy just bet his entire account on a crazy bet and won" or "Hmm. This guy flipped a coin and it came up heads 20 times in a row."
  - refurb 5y ago
    Exactly. I have no idea if it would work, but having a few years of making similar trades (some winners/some losers) likely helps stay off the SEC's radar. A track record of buying and selling similar options in similar amounts is much more explainable than only contributing a few thousand to your Roth IRA by buying ETFs, then suddenly making a few hundred thousand on your first options purchase that so happened to be in a single company that a LinkedIn contact works for. By the time the SEC is knocking on your door asking questions you're already screwed.

my guess is if they did everything via in person discussions and didnt leave a paper trail of messages, they likely wouldnt have been caught

by ffggvv 5y ago

my guess is if they did everything via in person discussions and didnt leave a paper trail of messages, they likely wouldnt have been caught

paulpauper 5y ago

they almost always get caught. The SEC is so good at detecting this stuff especially when people do it many times thinking they got away with it the first few times. .

rosndo 5y ago
Can you find any sources to support this claim? It is easy to find sources claiming the opposite. And no, it’s really difficult for SEC to detect any but the most basic forms of insider trading. Try to apply some adversarial thinking and envision a situation where you want to insider trade, but don’t want to get caught.
- paulpauper 5y ago
  I have seen cases where people get caught even after using many middlemen/intermediaries involving seemingly multiple unrelated contacts, breaking the trades up into tiny batches, using encrypted chat services, making normal trades and trying to mix the illicit trades in. >Try to apply some adversarial thinking and envision a situation where you want to insider trade, but don’t want to get caught. Criminals take great efforts to not be caught and still are.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    > Criminals take great efforts to not be caught and still are. Insider trading is not like other crimes. Consider the reasons why it is criminalized, which have been discussed elsewhere under this post.

refurb 5y ago

Matt Levine wrote some good articles on how people get busted. The main point is you can't buy or sell securities without identifying yourself. So when someone opens a new account and buy out-of-the-money call options that expire a few days after an earnings announcement it's not hard for the SEC to flag all those. Then all they have to do is look up that person and see if they have any connection to the company. They can look at who you are connected to on LinkedIn, who you live with, where your family is employed. Then they come to that person and ask them a question that seems innocuous "Have you ever discussed Company X with <insert name>". If you lie, then you've already committed a felony when they get your text records or email or Whatsapp.

nullc 5y ago
I think an element people miss is that to make more than negligible amounts of money from this stuff, you generally need to invest large amounts or or make the trades many time, or both. ... and this generates a pretty strong signal. "Hmm. This guy just bet his entire account on a crazy bet and won" or "Hmm. This guy flipped a coin and it came up heads 20 times in a row."
- refurb 5y ago
  Exactly. I have no idea if it would work, but having a few years of making similar trades (some winners/some losers) likely helps stay off the SEC's radar. A track record of buying and selling similar options in similar amounts is much more explainable than only contributing a few thousand to your Roth IRA by buying ETFs, then suddenly making a few hundred thousand on your first options purchase that so happened to be in a single company that a LinkedIn contact works for. By the time the SEC is knocking on your door asking questions you're already screwed.