5 ms·

I've noticed lots of commentators who seemingly couldn't point to Ukraine on a map before February have suggested that Ukraine's Nazi links are fabricated, when

by 0xy 5y ago

I've noticed lots of commentators who seemingly couldn't point to Ukraine on a map before February have suggested that Ukraine's Nazi links are fabricated, when even mainstream media was reporting this before 2022. It includes things such as Ukraine's police departments providing operational support to Nazi groups, and the groups' history of arming themselves with heavy weapons including missiles. [1] [2] [3] [4] Ukraine has a long history of directly supporting these groups. Implying either the Nazi groups don't exist or that they're not intertwined with government is opportunistic historical revisionism. The West not only ignores the problem, but directly supports the Nazi groups through weapons shipments, propaganda lines and protection from censorship. [5] [6] [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/world/europe/italy-neo-nazi-missile.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/world/europe/italy-neo-na... [3] https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/09/04/the-hardcore-russian-neo-nazi-group-that-calls-ukraine-home/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/09/04/the... [4] https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukraines-anti-russia-azov-battalion-minutemen-or-neo-nazi-terrorists https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukraines-anti-russia-azov-batt... [5] https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/ https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-ba... [6] https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1501171543371665408 https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1501171543371665408

andrei_says_ 5y ago
A quote from the first link: > When Russian President Vladimir Putin’s seizure of Crimea four years ago first exposed the decrepit condition of Ukraine’s armed forces, right-wing militias such as Azov and Right Sector stepped into the breach, fending off the Russian-backed separatists while Ukraine’s regular military regrouped. Though, as a result, many Ukrainians continue to regard the militias with gratitude and admiration, the more extreme among these groups promote an intolerant and illiberal ideology that will endanger Ukraine in the long term. Right wing militias in the context of constant ongoing military pressure from Russia and the forceful seizure of Crimea, also by Russia.
- xg15 5y ago
  Alright, but then have media at least acknowledge the existence of right-wing militas and put them into context. As far as the public discussion (at least in Germany) went so far, the first media response to the "denazification" speech was more or less "wtf is that guy talking about?". There was no talk at all about any right-wing groups in Ukraine at all. After some time, at least existence of Azov had to be tacitly acknowledged, but only that so far. That's not exactly trust-building.
zqna 5y ago
Another way to fight propaganda is to fight those who spread false narratives and lies. Ideally by giving them a fair trial, then attaching them to a chair and forcing them to watch their creations till the end of the days. Think Orange Clockwork. Though better it would be to let them work in rebuilding the cities that their propaganda destroyed. Unfortunately these people are uncapable of creation so it's a vain idea.
- squarefoot 5y ago
  > Another way to fight propaganda is to fight those who spread false narratives and lies. Good luck with that. They are mostly powerful rich people with an agenda, and they're a lot better than us at being nasty. As for the victims, it's not going to work. The pandemic revealed us how deep some people are detached from reality. There still are people dying of Covid who spend their very last breath yelling at doctors and nurses, refusing treatment and calling it a hoax although it is evidently killing them. An ex friend of mine had both his unvaccinated parents hospitalized for symptomatic Covid and lost another unvaccinated relative; still he's a very active anti vaxxer. I'm becoming extremely racist against these people; I know it's not right and if there was a god she would punish me, but I can't consider them on the same level of other humans; if learning from mistakes is the basis behind intelligence, they're clearly far far behind everyone else.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    There are also people who now live with crippling injuries, or who died, because they took the vaccines, despite being at statistically ~no risk from COVID. They took them because they were told, wrongly, that the shots were perfectly safe. Detached from reality, it seems. BTW, you probably shouldn't admit that you're nasty and "racist" whilst also claiming to be more intelligent than other people who made different decisions to you. It's a nonsensical claim: refusing shots is not a race, and black Americans refuse shots at a much higher rate than whites do anyway. Hating anti-vaxxers is just ordinary hatred, pure and simple. You don't need to abuse unrelated words for it.
    - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ShivShankaran 5y ago
Also note that until Trump, The US government had an embargo against arming Ukraine due to their extreme Neo Nazi movement. https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms... Obama was well aware of it and had 100% hands off approach to arming Ukraine. The process of arming Ukraine started with Trump and continued with Biden when the US government realized they can sell their weapons without hurting any of their lives (the exact same as arming Mujaheddin to fight the Russians)
- Jiro 5y ago
  That link just says there was an embargo against arming that specific movement in Ukraine, not against arming Ukraine.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  The sibling comment correctly explains why the article doesn't say what you thought it did, that the US had been giving aid to Ukraine since 2014 and only in 2018 specified that none of that aid should go to a particular militia. The real reason the US didn't arm Ukraine was that it didn't want to provoke Putin into escalating the conflict: https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-russia-weapons-20150211-story.html https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-russia-we...
tangent-man 5y ago
There's Nazis everywhere dude: https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis4 https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhoga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhoga https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-german-neo-nazis-training-in-russia/a-53702613 https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-german-neo-nazis-training-in-r... I think you will find the stuff about Biological Weapons Labs is a load of nonsense too.

by 0xy 5y ago

andrei_says_ 5y ago

A quote from the first link: > When Russian President Vladimir Putin’s seizure of Crimea four years ago first exposed the decrepit condition of Ukraine’s armed forces, right-wing militias such as Azov and Right Sector stepped into the breach, fending off the Russian-backed separatists while Ukraine’s regular military regrouped. Though, as a result, many Ukrainians continue to regard the militias with gratitude and admiration, the more extreme among these groups promote an intolerant and illiberal ideology that will endanger Ukraine in the long term. Right wing militias in the context of constant ongoing military pressure from Russia and the forceful seizure of Crimea, also by Russia.

xg15 5y ago
Alright, but then have media at least acknowledge the existence of right-wing militas and put them into context. As far as the public discussion (at least in Germany) went so far, the first media response to the "denazification" speech was more or less "wtf is that guy talking about?". There was no talk at all about any right-wing groups in Ukraine at all. After some time, at least existence of Azov had to be tacitly acknowledged, but only that so far. That's not exactly trust-building.

zqna 5y ago

Another way to fight propaganda is to fight those who spread false narratives and lies. Ideally by giving them a fair trial, then attaching them to a chair and forcing them to watch their creations till the end of the days. Think Orange Clockwork. Though better it would be to let them work in rebuilding the cities that their propaganda destroyed. Unfortunately these people are uncapable of creation so it's a vain idea.

squarefoot 5y ago
> Another way to fight propaganda is to fight those who spread false narratives and lies. Good luck with that. They are mostly powerful rich people with an agenda, and they're a lot better than us at being nasty. As for the victims, it's not going to work. The pandemic revealed us how deep some people are detached from reality. There still are people dying of Covid who spend their very last breath yelling at doctors and nurses, refusing treatment and calling it a hoax although it is evidently killing them. An ex friend of mine had both his unvaccinated parents hospitalized for symptomatic Covid and lost another unvaccinated relative; still he's a very active anti vaxxer. I'm becoming extremely racist against these people; I know it's not right and if there was a god she would punish me, but I can't consider them on the same level of other humans; if learning from mistakes is the basis behind intelligence, they're clearly far far behind everyone else.
- native_samples 5y ago
  There are also people who now live with crippling injuries, or who died, because they took the vaccines, despite being at statistically ~no risk from COVID. They took them because they were told, wrongly, that the shots were perfectly safe. Detached from reality, it seems. BTW, you probably shouldn't admit that you're nasty and "racist" whilst also claiming to be more intelligent than other people who made different decisions to you. It's a nonsensical claim: refusing shots is not a race, and black Americans refuse shots at a much higher rate than whites do anyway. Hating anti-vaxxers is just ordinary hatred, pure and simple. You don't need to abuse unrelated words for it.
  - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ShivShankaran 5y ago

Also note that until Trump, The US government had an embargo against arming Ukraine due to their extreme Neo Nazi movement. https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms... Obama was well aware of it and had 100% hands off approach to arming Ukraine. The process of arming Ukraine started with Trump and continued with Biden when the US government realized they can sell their weapons without hurting any of their lives (the exact same as arming Mujaheddin to fight the Russians)

Jiro 5y ago
That link just says there was an embargo against arming that specific movement in Ukraine, not against arming Ukraine.
lern_too_spel 5y ago
The sibling comment correctly explains why the article doesn't say what you thought it did, that the US had been giving aid to Ukraine since 2014 and only in 2018 specified that none of that aid should go to a particular militia. The real reason the US didn't arm Ukraine was that it didn't want to provoke Putin into escalating the conflict: https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-russia-weapons-20150211-story.html https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-russia-we...

tangent-man 5y ago

There's Nazis everywhere dude: https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis4 https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhoga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhoga https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-german-neo-nazis-training-in-russia/a-53702613 https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-german-neo-nazis-training-in-r... I think you will find the stuff about Biological Weapons Labs is a load of nonsense too.