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You don’t slaughter a chicken to get its eggs. On a more serious note, why do ethical vegan proponents feel it is better for an animal to never live at all? To

You don’t slaughter a chicken to get its eggs. On a more serious note, why do ethical vegan proponents feel it is better for an animal to never live at all? To be devoid of purpose due to lack of existence?

hnrj95 5y ago
i’m not vegan, but the egg industry is probably one of the most atrocious concerning animal welfare iiuc. they do slaughter chicks in droves—just not for meat
- traviswt 5y ago
  Animal welfare should not focus on if an animal dies if the alternative is for it to never live at all. Any amount of time, even a day after hatching, is greater than zero. Instead we should focus on quality of life and how humane the death is.
  - frrxcccfff 5y ago
    [flagged]
  - macintux 5y ago
    Hypothetically if slavery resulted in more children, we should never have abolished it?
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      1. Freed slaves became independent. They aren't chickens which wouldn't survive in a non domesticated environment. 2. Farming chickens and enslaving people is not even remotely on the same level.
      - spaetzleesser 5y ago
        “They aren't chickens which wouldn't survive in a non domesticated environment.” You would be very surprised how quickly animals can adapt to a new environment. There are plenty of examples of domesticated animals being released into the wild and doing just fine.
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Cows and chickens will not survive in the wild, I promise you. Yes, dogs, horses, and others can in certain instances.
        brimble 5y ago
        I'd think dogs are mostly able to because they're still around humans and can scavenge off our garbage. Any breed that's not damn close to a wolf, I'd expect not to be able to find/catch enough food to survive long if dropped in actual wilderness. Chickens would become food for other animals in days, at most. It's hard enough to keep that from happening when they're kept, let alone in the wild. Cows are like giant, extremely stupid deer, so I doubt we'd tolerate them in the wild anywhere even slightly near civilization, putting aside their ability to survive on their own (which I also doubt—first bad Winter would take care of them, I reckon).
        spaetzleesser 5y ago
        Not that we we will be able to test it, but I would bet against your promise. I don’t see a reason why cows or chickens couldn’t survive in the wild. Not in all areas obviously but I am sure there are areas where climate, vegetation and predators allow them to thrive. We have wild turkeys, we have quail, so why not chickens? And if horses can survive, then cows can too. Horses are way more fragile than cows.
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Have you dealt with chickens, turkeys, horses, or cows in real life? Because it doesn't seem like you have. Horses are in no way more fragile than cows, especially wild stallions. I've raised turkeys, chickens, cows, and horses. The turkeys and chickens people eat are not the same as wild turkeys, they would not survive without humans.
    - traviswt 5y ago
      There is one belief everyone must share for western society to function: humans are special. If you disagree and equate owning a chicken to owning a human, then I have no reasoning which will satisfy you or your hypothetical. Our entire western society is built upon humans being special and having dominion, over both plants _and_ animals.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  It's not just the slaughter of chicks that's horrific, but: 1 - how they do it -- male chicks are often just thrown alive in to grinders 2 - the debeaking of chickens If this was happening to humans there'd be outrage, but because it happens to animals most people don't care.
xeromal 5y ago
I'm not an ethical vegan or a vegan at all, but I'm aware of our mass agricultural system being terrible ethically for animals. If just chickens and cows ceased to exist, I don't think the world would suffer too much. Goose and ducks would fill the role chickens have in aerating the soil. > To be devoid of purpose due to lack of existence? Plenty of people and creatures commit suicide when life is too much to bear. Sometimes depriving oneself of life can be a blessing. If I was hooked up to a machine that just drained me of blood, milk, or something else and I was force fed, I'd probably kill myself if able. Why do we not afford a creature the same pity? And again, I say this as someone who eats meat.
frrxcccfff 5y ago
[flagged]
thescriptkiddie 5y ago
Vegan is not the same thing as vegetarian.
rsynnott 5y ago
> You don’t slaughter a chicken to get its eggs. I mean... if you want eggs on an industrial scale, yes, obviously you do. Chickens live 5-10 years; laying hens are typically killed at about a year in. If you get all your eggs from your pet backyard chickens, that's one thing, but most people don't.
Telitio 5y ago
- hunterb123 5y ago
  As a chicken or a human? Life should have a shot at consciousness. It's your privilege to be able to decide that you would have preferred not to have been born. Other lifeforms may come to an opposing belief, and they deserve that chance. Most likely a chicken doesn't have complex enough thought to reach that, but that means it also doesn't worry about the day of slaughter, it just enjoys life, assuming it has a good range.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    > Life should have a shot at consciousness We’re getting into “every sperm is sacred” territory here.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      No, we're in "let's not drive all domesticated animals into extinction" territory.
  - Telitio 5y ago
sweetheart 5y ago
Billions of male chickls are ground up by the egg industry every year because they aren't productive at all. Also, egg laying chickens are only economically viable for a few years at most, even though they live for many more, so egg laying chickens are indeed killed because they become a liability. > why do ethical vegan proponents feel it is better for an animal to never live at all? The same reason that I feel it'd have been better for someone who abused and murdered their child to have never had any children. Bringing something into this world does not permit us to treat it however we want. We all know that, some people just think it for some reasons doesn't apply to chickens, cows, pigs, etc.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 5y ago
  Yeah, pretty much this. Industry farming treats animals horribly and the quality is usually crap. Backyard chickens is another thing, and anyone who wants fresh eggs should go that route. The same applies to chickens raised for meat.
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    I don’t eat meat myself but I would be ok if animals got treated well during their lifetime and just had one bad day when they get slaughtered. Wild animals also usually don’t have good endings. What I object to is the cruelty these animals are subjected to for their whole life. Their whole life is a sequence of very bad days without reprieve.
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      Ignoring the fact that the “one bad day” method is still messed up (would we be cool if i shot my dog in the head as soon as I was inconvenienced?), there is no way to ensure these animals treated well before their slaughter and maintain any level of scale. If you want to pay $60 for a dozen eggs, sure, maybe there is a way to ensure your “one bad day” eggs are in super markets. Otherwise the only way it works is if the welfare of animals is ignored. To know that you aren’t supporting such violence, it’s easy: just don’t eat animal products.
malfist 5y ago
You're constructing a vegan strawman here. Ethical veganism is about reducing harm to animals. You can't harm a hypothetical chicken that was never born. Are you seriously suggesting torturing and slaughtering animals is a better alternative to a world where that doesn't happen and that might have less chickens?
- traviswt 5y ago
  Just think through the “levels” of chicken life: 1. Let die naturally of old age 2. Slaughter after a productive life 3. Slaughter mid life because disease 4. Slaughter mid life because money (e.g., price of feed) 5. Slaughter/cull young for sexing 6. Use fertilized eggs 7. Prevent fertilization, use unfertilized 8. Eliminate laying of eggs Prevention of life is death in the limit.
  - malfist 5y ago
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    People make the same argument for why women can’t chose what happens to their own bodies (eg rape victims opting for abortion). And some people make the same arguments against contraception too. In all cases, yours and the above, I find the argument less than compelling because life isn’t something that exists prior to birth; you’re not denying a soul from physical form because you happen to farm fewer chickens. Arguing that the absence of life is the same as death is really just a clever way of justifying selfish ideals.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
“ is better for an animal to never live at all? To be devoid of purpose due to lack of existence?L Yes, it’s better not to live at all if the alternative is to be tortured for your whole life

hnrj95 5y ago

i’m not vegan, but the egg industry is probably one of the most atrocious concerning animal welfare iiuc. they do slaughter chicks in droves—just not for meat

traviswt 5y ago
Animal welfare should not focus on if an animal dies if the alternative is for it to never live at all. Any amount of time, even a day after hatching, is greater than zero. Instead we should focus on quality of life and how humane the death is.
- frrxcccfff 5y ago
  [flagged]
- macintux 5y ago
  Hypothetically if slavery resulted in more children, we should never have abolished it?
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    1. Freed slaves became independent. They aren't chickens which wouldn't survive in a non domesticated environment. 2. Farming chickens and enslaving people is not even remotely on the same level.
    - spaetzleesser 5y ago
      “They aren't chickens which wouldn't survive in a non domesticated environment.” You would be very surprised how quickly animals can adapt to a new environment. There are plenty of examples of domesticated animals being released into the wild and doing just fine.
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        Cows and chickens will not survive in the wild, I promise you. Yes, dogs, horses, and others can in certain instances.
        brimble 5y ago
        I'd think dogs are mostly able to because they're still around humans and can scavenge off our garbage. Any breed that's not damn close to a wolf, I'd expect not to be able to find/catch enough food to survive long if dropped in actual wilderness. Chickens would become food for other animals in days, at most. It's hard enough to keep that from happening when they're kept, let alone in the wild. Cows are like giant, extremely stupid deer, so I doubt we'd tolerate them in the wild anywhere even slightly near civilization, putting aside their ability to survive on their own (which I also doubt—first bad Winter would take care of them, I reckon).
        spaetzleesser 5y ago
        Not that we we will be able to test it, but I would bet against your promise. I don’t see a reason why cows or chickens couldn’t survive in the wild. Not in all areas obviously but I am sure there are areas where climate, vegetation and predators allow them to thrive. We have wild turkeys, we have quail, so why not chickens? And if horses can survive, then cows can too. Horses are way more fragile than cows.
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Have you dealt with chickens, turkeys, horses, or cows in real life? Because it doesn't seem like you have. Horses are in no way more fragile than cows, especially wild stallions. I've raised turkeys, chickens, cows, and horses. The turkeys and chickens people eat are not the same as wild turkeys, they would not survive without humans.
  - traviswt 5y ago
    There is one belief everyone must share for western society to function: humans are special. If you disagree and equate owning a chicken to owning a human, then I have no reasoning which will satisfy you or your hypothetical. Our entire western society is built upon humans being special and having dominion, over both plants _and_ animals.
pmoriarty 5y ago
It's not just the slaughter of chicks that's horrific, but: 1 - how they do it -- male chicks are often just thrown alive in to grinders 2 - the debeaking of chickens If this was happening to humans there'd be outrage, but because it happens to animals most people don't care.

xeromal 5y ago

I'm not an ethical vegan or a vegan at all, but I'm aware of our mass agricultural system being terrible ethically for animals. If just chickens and cows ceased to exist, I don't think the world would suffer too much. Goose and ducks would fill the role chickens have in aerating the soil. > To be devoid of purpose due to lack of existence? Plenty of people and creatures commit suicide when life is too much to bear. Sometimes depriving oneself of life can be a blessing. If I was hooked up to a machine that just drained me of blood, milk, or something else and I was force fed, I'd probably kill myself if able. Why do we not afford a creature the same pity? And again, I say this as someone who eats meat.

frrxcccfff 5y ago

[flagged]

thescriptkiddie 5y ago

Vegan is not the same thing as vegetarian.

rsynnott 5y ago

> You don’t slaughter a chicken to get its eggs. I mean... if you want eggs on an industrial scale, yes, obviously you do. Chickens live 5-10 years; laying hens are typically killed at about a year in. If you get all your eggs from your pet backyard chickens, that's one thing, but most people don't.

Telitio 5y ago

hunterb123 5y ago
As a chicken or a human? Life should have a shot at consciousness. It's your privilege to be able to decide that you would have preferred not to have been born. Other lifeforms may come to an opposing belief, and they deserve that chance. Most likely a chicken doesn't have complex enough thought to reach that, but that means it also doesn't worry about the day of slaughter, it just enjoys life, assuming it has a good range.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  > Life should have a shot at consciousness We’re getting into “every sperm is sacred” territory here.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    No, we're in "let's not drive all domesticated animals into extinction" territory.
- Telitio 5y ago

sweetheart 5y ago

Billions of male chickls are ground up by the egg industry every year because they aren't productive at all. Also, egg laying chickens are only economically viable for a few years at most, even though they live for many more, so egg laying chickens are indeed killed because they become a liability. > why do ethical vegan proponents feel it is better for an animal to never live at all? The same reason that I feel it'd have been better for someone who abused and murdered their child to have never had any children. Bringing something into this world does not permit us to treat it however we want. We all know that, some people just think it for some reasons doesn't apply to chickens, cows, pigs, etc.

2000UltraDeluxe 5y ago
Yeah, pretty much this. Industry farming treats animals horribly and the quality is usually crap. Backyard chickens is another thing, and anyone who wants fresh eggs should go that route. The same applies to chickens raised for meat.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  I don’t eat meat myself but I would be ok if animals got treated well during their lifetime and just had one bad day when they get slaughtered. Wild animals also usually don’t have good endings. What I object to is the cruelty these animals are subjected to for their whole life. Their whole life is a sequence of very bad days without reprieve.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Ignoring the fact that the “one bad day” method is still messed up (would we be cool if i shot my dog in the head as soon as I was inconvenienced?), there is no way to ensure these animals treated well before their slaughter and maintain any level of scale. If you want to pay $60 for a dozen eggs, sure, maybe there is a way to ensure your “one bad day” eggs are in super markets. Otherwise the only way it works is if the welfare of animals is ignored. To know that you aren’t supporting such violence, it’s easy: just don’t eat animal products.

malfist 5y ago

You're constructing a vegan strawman here. Ethical veganism is about reducing harm to animals. You can't harm a hypothetical chicken that was never born. Are you seriously suggesting torturing and slaughtering animals is a better alternative to a world where that doesn't happen and that might have less chickens?

traviswt 5y ago
Just think through the “levels” of chicken life: 1. Let die naturally of old age 2. Slaughter after a productive life 3. Slaughter mid life because disease 4. Slaughter mid life because money (e.g., price of feed) 5. Slaughter/cull young for sexing 6. Use fertilized eggs 7. Prevent fertilization, use unfertilized 8. Eliminate laying of eggs Prevention of life is death in the limit.
- malfist 5y ago
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  People make the same argument for why women can’t chose what happens to their own bodies (eg rape victims opting for abortion). And some people make the same arguments against contraception too. In all cases, yours and the above, I find the argument less than compelling because life isn’t something that exists prior to birth; you’re not denying a soul from physical form because you happen to farm fewer chickens. Arguing that the absence of life is the same as death is really just a clever way of justifying selfish ideals.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

“ is better for an animal to never live at all? To be devoid of purpose due to lack of existence?L Yes, it’s better not to live at all if the alternative is to be tortured for your whole life