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Have you ever interacted with a "troubled" teen? This comment is not based on reality. It's laughable, really. There are kids who cannot be reasoned with. You

Have you ever interacted with a "troubled" teen? This comment is not based on reality. It's laughable, really. There are kids who cannot be reasoned with. You try to explain the importance of healthy teeth to troubled teen and they will respond "I don't care". "Natural consequences" are not sufficient. A troubled kid will drink himself into the hospital over and over. A troubled kid will have run ins with the law over and over. These kids are labeled troubled because they are.

hef19898 5y ago
Assuming they really are troublesome, that justifies torturing them into compliance? On which legal ground are they basically imprisoned? If they are so troublesome that they are a continuous threat to society (e.g. murders or serial sex offenders), there are legal ways to get them into psychiatric clinics (those means are easily abused as well so). If they are not, well, in a free society you cannot prevent people from ruining their own lives. Most "troublesome" kids, so, are nowhere even close to these categories. And if they turn out to have really troubled lives after wards (e.g. drug abuse and everything that comes with it), I'd say most of that was caused by the "treatment" they received previously. just to take your example of a drinking teen (being German my threshold for that would be considerably higher then the US one at that), how do you think such a teen, with already existing problems of substance abuse, would behave after going through months or years of mental and physical abuse? Turning sober? Or falling deeper into that hole? I'm puzzled that I even have to argue against a system that, as was proven time and again, results in very serious child abuse.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  You're creating a false dichotomy. Obviously these abusive camps are bad. That doesn't need to be said. Irrespective of the camps, OPs parenting advice is bad, insulting, and deserves to be called out.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    Your solution sounds like we should try nothing, > There are kids who cannot be reasoned with. Are you familiar with an approach that can help? The approach I mention has been around for over 70 years.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      Are you a parent? And if so, did you use your approach? It would just be anecdata, but at least some real world experience.
      - unityByFreedom 5y ago
        Yes and yes, of course I do! I've learned a ton from this discipline and never need to raise my voice with my kid. When I do raise my voice, it is almost always unnecessary. I apologize in those cases because I want her to know we can recover from mistakes and that it is okay to be upset. Our relationship is stronger for it.
        hef19898 5y ago
        Kudos, then, I try and fail at being the parent I want more often than I care to admit. What ever makes our children human beings able to show compassion with others, and stay safe as soon as they have to live their lives on their own feet, is good parenting. Everything else is secondary. Same as the most important thing with new born toddlers is "are they healthy?".
        unityByFreedom 5y ago
        Haha right, failure is part of parenting. Admit it! Even to your kids. You're a better parent for it, and it doesn't mean you're giving up. It just gives you a way to backtrack and avoid painting yourself into a corner. And yes, if you already have a parenting style that works, stick with it. I mention Positive Discipline because it works for me and there are a lot of resources for it.
unityByFreedom 5y ago
> These kids are labeled troubled because they are. Well, again, the title of this post shows the results of that attitude. Years of misbehavior and a well written story from a lucky one who made it to the other side, no thanks to "tough love" bootcamps according to him. Every kid looks up to someone, whether they see that someone in person or on a screen. Becoming that someone, or a trusted figure for a teen, is a lifestyle change. Building trust takes time, and it can be lost in a moment.
denton-scratch 5y ago
There's a tendency to explain away behaviour as being the result of a person being "bad". It's a lazy way out. > healthy teeth So "cannot be reasoned with" seems to mean "refuses to accept that I'm right". If you have charge of an unruly kid, I hope you aren't focusing mainly on their dental hygiene. > These kids are labeled troubled because they are. Gosh, that sounds rather black-and-white - they're "bad" because they're "bad". I think the word "troubled" here is serving as a dog-whistle; a lot/all of the time, what's being referred to as "troubled" is really "traumatised".
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > So "cannot be reasoned with" seems to mean "refuses to accept that I'm right". That's unnecessarily combative. Are you arguing that refusing to brush your teeth is a reasonable position? > I hope you aren't focusing mainly on their dental hygiene. Dental hygiene was OP's example. > a lot/all of the time, what's being referred to as "troubled" is really "traumatised". I agree that most of the "troubled" kids I've known have been traumatized. But traumatization does not necessarily lead to being "troubled", and being "troubled" does not require traumatization. In any case, it does not excuse illegal, damaging, and destructive behaviors.
  - mxkopy 5y ago
    >That's unnecessarily combative. Are you arguing that refusing to brush your teeth is a reasonable position? If all you did was explain to them the importance of healthy teeth, then denton-scratch is justified, all you're saying is that the kid cannot be reasoned with because they didn't listen to your explanation. Show them a root canal. Let them talk to the local crackhead. If your kid doesn't already have trauma and they aren't listening, most likely you aren't trying hard enough or aren't creative enough in your approach.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    > Are you arguing that refusing to brush your teeth is a reasonable position? No, I'm not. I'm arguing that poor dental hygiene isn't in the same universe as getting drunk, stealing your parent's car, and wrapping it round a tree. Or beating up small kids at school. It seems an awfully trivial misdemeanour to bring up, in a discussion of "troubled" kids and abusive incarceration.
erdos4d 5y ago
I'm certain you can find teens who have such attitudes and behaviors, but I'd argue that every one of them was made that way through years of abuse and neglect. Does it help them to look at them as fucked up, irredeemable, etc? Cause that is exactly how your comment reads.

hef19898 5y ago

Assuming they really are troublesome, that justifies torturing them into compliance? On which legal ground are they basically imprisoned? If they are so troublesome that they are a continuous threat to society (e.g. murders or serial sex offenders), there are legal ways to get them into psychiatric clinics (those means are easily abused as well so). If they are not, well, in a free society you cannot prevent people from ruining their own lives. Most "troublesome" kids, so, are nowhere even close to these categories. And if they turn out to have really troubled lives after wards (e.g. drug abuse and everything that comes with it), I'd say most of that was caused by the "treatment" they received previously. just to take your example of a drinking teen (being German my threshold for that would be considerably higher then the US one at that), how do you think such a teen, with already existing problems of substance abuse, would behave after going through months or years of mental and physical abuse? Turning sober? Or falling deeper into that hole? I'm puzzled that I even have to argue against a system that, as was proven time and again, results in very serious child abuse.

dahfizz 5y ago
You're creating a false dichotomy. Obviously these abusive camps are bad. That doesn't need to be said. Irrespective of the camps, OPs parenting advice is bad, insulting, and deserves to be called out.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  Your solution sounds like we should try nothing, > There are kids who cannot be reasoned with. Are you familiar with an approach that can help? The approach I mention has been around for over 70 years.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Are you a parent? And if so, did you use your approach? It would just be anecdata, but at least some real world experience.
    - unityByFreedom 5y ago
      Yes and yes, of course I do! I've learned a ton from this discipline and never need to raise my voice with my kid. When I do raise my voice, it is almost always unnecessary. I apologize in those cases because I want her to know we can recover from mistakes and that it is okay to be upset. Our relationship is stronger for it.
      - hef19898 5y ago
        Kudos, then, I try and fail at being the parent I want more often than I care to admit. What ever makes our children human beings able to show compassion with others, and stay safe as soon as they have to live their lives on their own feet, is good parenting. Everything else is secondary. Same as the most important thing with new born toddlers is "are they healthy?".
        unityByFreedom 5y ago
        Haha right, failure is part of parenting. Admit it! Even to your kids. You're a better parent for it, and it doesn't mean you're giving up. It just gives you a way to backtrack and avoid painting yourself into a corner. And yes, if you already have a parenting style that works, stick with it. I mention Positive Discipline because it works for me and there are a lot of resources for it.

unityByFreedom 5y ago

> These kids are labeled troubled because they are. Well, again, the title of this post shows the results of that attitude. Years of misbehavior and a well written story from a lucky one who made it to the other side, no thanks to "tough love" bootcamps according to him. Every kid looks up to someone, whether they see that someone in person or on a screen. Becoming that someone, or a trusted figure for a teen, is a lifestyle change. Building trust takes time, and it can be lost in a moment.

denton-scratch 5y ago

There's a tendency to explain away behaviour as being the result of a person being "bad". It's a lazy way out. > healthy teeth So "cannot be reasoned with" seems to mean "refuses to accept that I'm right". If you have charge of an unruly kid, I hope you aren't focusing mainly on their dental hygiene. > These kids are labeled troubled because they are. Gosh, that sounds rather black-and-white - they're "bad" because they're "bad". I think the word "troubled" here is serving as a dog-whistle; a lot/all of the time, what's being referred to as "troubled" is really "traumatised".

dahfizz 5y ago
> So "cannot be reasoned with" seems to mean "refuses to accept that I'm right". That's unnecessarily combative. Are you arguing that refusing to brush your teeth is a reasonable position? > I hope you aren't focusing mainly on their dental hygiene. Dental hygiene was OP's example. > a lot/all of the time, what's being referred to as "troubled" is really "traumatised". I agree that most of the "troubled" kids I've known have been traumatized. But traumatization does not necessarily lead to being "troubled", and being "troubled" does not require traumatization. In any case, it does not excuse illegal, damaging, and destructive behaviors.
- mxkopy 5y ago
  >That's unnecessarily combative. Are you arguing that refusing to brush your teeth is a reasonable position? If all you did was explain to them the importance of healthy teeth, then denton-scratch is justified, all you're saying is that the kid cannot be reasoned with because they didn't listen to your explanation. Show them a root canal. Let them talk to the local crackhead. If your kid doesn't already have trauma and they aren't listening, most likely you aren't trying hard enough or aren't creative enough in your approach.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > Are you arguing that refusing to brush your teeth is a reasonable position? No, I'm not. I'm arguing that poor dental hygiene isn't in the same universe as getting drunk, stealing your parent's car, and wrapping it round a tree. Or beating up small kids at school. It seems an awfully trivial misdemeanour to bring up, in a discussion of "troubled" kids and abusive incarceration.

erdos4d 5y ago

I'm certain you can find teens who have such attitudes and behaviors, but I'd argue that every one of them was made that way through years of abuse and neglect. Does it help them to look at them as fucked up, irredeemable, etc? Cause that is exactly how your comment reads.