4 ms·

Honestly, what are people's thoughts on automatic updates being built into the OS? They can be good for patching security vulnerabilities, but automatic updates

by cmdli 5y ago

Honestly, what are people's thoughts on automatic updates being built into the OS? They can be good for patching security vulnerabilities, but automatic updates are also incredibly unpopular (see Windows). I personally wouldn't want an OS that updates according to the developers wishes, with no control on my end. It reeks too much of corporate control, from simple things like changing UI or functionality to much bigger things like removing features because they are no longer in the interest of the company.

manmal 5y ago
Web apps update every time you open them, so it seems we won’t be able to escape this in the long run.
- shpx 5y ago
  This and the fact that they (usually) install in under a second is the entire explanation for the success of the Web, in my opinion.
vt240 5y ago
Please. Help us small business. Extend cycles to have a better coverage of security issues, and less feature changes, in updates.
a9h74j 5y ago
I can imagine eventual (de-googled?) variants which will update only from a local server. In principle, at that local server level one might manually update repositories and control the version(s) presented to Fuchia clients.
atty 5y ago
I guess it depends on how it’s handled. If their success rate is as poor as windows updates then obviously I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole for anything critical. But if the updates go as smoothly as iOS (or windows defender/macOS security) updates tend to, then I think the pros outweigh the cons for the majority of individuals for any devices that are regularly on the internet.
nl 5y ago
Windows updates are mostly unpopular because they have a tendency to happen when you are in the middle of something else which is incredibly annoying.
bandamo 5y ago
fuchsia has an interesstin new approach for the handling of updates (should be more stable). We will see how this plays out, when it is no longer a developer playground with nightly builds.
tmikaeld 5y ago
It looks like everything runs decoupled in user-space, even the filesystem, drivers and packages. Meaning that updates to the system happens per part and requires no re-boots when updating (not even file-system updates, according to docs). So the updates are independent, the packages have their own life-cycles and works independent of the underlying system. Having an auto-updating, fully sandboxed OS, without reboots, really doesn't sound that bad. Especially if it's only kernel, stability and security updates.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Running in user space doesn't automatically decouple things; dbus is a user space process, but restarting it is traumatic because half the system uses it.
  - sph 5y ago
    That's because dbus hasn't been written with no-downtime restarts in mind, but it's not that challenging to implement, especially when client apps are interfacing through (UNIX) sockets. It's not dissimilar to writing zero-downtime web services.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      Sure, but that's not a function of user/kernel space; Linux has live patching and dbus doesn't. It would be cool if fuchsia makes every OS component support non-disruptive updates, I'm just trying to point out that that doesn't automatically follow from running parts in user space.
      - tmikaeld 5y ago
        Good point, updated my reply. While Google don't explicitly say that they want to support run-time updates of the kernel and OS; it's implied in their system architecture that such is the case.
        5y ago
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> If interested, you can configure your Workstation to receive automatic updates. If it stays here, I'm 100% on board; I wouldn't even mind defaulting to on. Forced automatic updates (hi, Microsoft) are a terrible move. I would also say that separating bug/security fixes from features and breaking changes helps, if my OS vendor had a way to auto-patch only security issues, and could ensure zero breakage as a result - no new features, no changing UX, nothing but invisible security patches - I'd enable it in a heartbeat. And they won't, so I won't:)
- khimaros 5y ago
  it sounds like you're looking for debian stable ;)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
j-james 5y ago
It makes sense if Fuchsia's main use cases are IoT devices, given how common public-facing vulnerable IoT devices made by defunct companies there are. It also makes sense if Fuchsia eventually replaces Linux as the Android kernel, given the historical short EoLs and lack of security updates (see: https://androidvulnerabilities.org https://androidvulnerabilities.org). For a development machine, I'd honestly... be pretty fine with it. That's similar to how Arch Linux operates (but change hourly to daily or weekly) and it causes very few problems. I think I've had maybe two or three big issues caused by updates in the past year, plus a couple application-specific issues (not kernel-level or os-level). With a more extensive regression testing team I can see Fuchsia following through with the promise of seamless updates. Windows updates also have possibly the worst reputation you can get (except, maybe, iOS update's reputation when Apple was slowing down older devices), so almost anything Google does will be better. Not needing to reboot (presumably, if they're checking every hour) after an update will also help.
thereisnospork 5y ago
I find them awful. Even ignoring the philosophical "it's my machine dammit, it'll update when I damn well want it to and not before" POV[0] it is a practical mess on[1] two fronts: 1. I use my windows machine for computation, ergo it needs to be running, and it costs me money and productivity when it is not. If it restarts to update, I lose hours at minimum of cpu-time and more until I notice and can get things restarted. 2. It makes what should be core user functionality useless. I would like to set up my desktop, with some programs open, a few spreadsheets mayhaps, browser to discord, reddit, HN, etc. Maybe a second desktop relegated to some other task. I can't do this, because windows will force a restart in the next 144 hours which will invariably fubar anything I've tried to set up. [0]To which I strongly adhere. [1]At least.
viraptor 5y ago
Windows updates are unpopular due to their implementation. Among other issues: they require a restart, they run complicated transactional flow rather than snapshots + patching the files, they kill the desktop state, they require extra processing on the next startup right as you want to actually do work, the whole delivery system is super complicated to suit enterprises, and yet it is still not able to handle user apps in the same flow. If they implemented a proper A/B booting with preserving the intent/state of open apps most people wouldn't even realise an update happened and wouldn't complain.
agloeregrets 5y ago
I would imagine any consumer product running it would work like ChromeOS with a second system library that gets updated in the background and then swapped in at boot. Windows update is hated for how bad the implementation is..but people also don't like having out of date software and features.
Iolaum 5y ago
The problem is that automatic updates are both feature updates and security updates. I doubt many people will have a problem with security updates that have no impact on the feature space. But feature updates tend to break UX flows and not many people are happy about that.Your comment about corporate control also applies to feature updates.

by cmdli 5y ago

manmal 5y ago

Web apps update every time you open them, so it seems we won’t be able to escape this in the long run.

shpx 5y ago
This and the fact that they (usually) install in under a second is the entire explanation for the success of the Web, in my opinion.

vt240 5y ago

Please. Help us small business. Extend cycles to have a better coverage of security issues, and less feature changes, in updates.

a9h74j 5y ago

I can imagine eventual (de-googled?) variants which will update only from a local server. In principle, at that local server level one might manually update repositories and control the version(s) presented to Fuchia clients.

atty 5y ago

I guess it depends on how it’s handled. If their success rate is as poor as windows updates then obviously I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole for anything critical. But if the updates go as smoothly as iOS (or windows defender/macOS security) updates tend to, then I think the pros outweigh the cons for the majority of individuals for any devices that are regularly on the internet.

nl 5y ago

Windows updates are mostly unpopular because they have a tendency to happen when you are in the middle of something else which is incredibly annoying.

bandamo 5y ago

fuchsia has an interesstin new approach for the handling of updates (should be more stable). We will see how this plays out, when it is no longer a developer playground with nightly builds.

tmikaeld 5y ago

It looks like everything runs decoupled in user-space, even the filesystem, drivers and packages. Meaning that updates to the system happens per part and requires no re-boots when updating (not even file-system updates, according to docs). So the updates are independent, the packages have their own life-cycles and works independent of the underlying system. Having an auto-updating, fully sandboxed OS, without reboots, really doesn't sound that bad. Especially if it's only kernel, stability and security updates.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Running in user space doesn't automatically decouple things; dbus is a user space process, but restarting it is traumatic because half the system uses it.
- sph 5y ago
  That's because dbus hasn't been written with no-downtime restarts in mind, but it's not that challenging to implement, especially when client apps are interfacing through (UNIX) sockets. It's not dissimilar to writing zero-downtime web services.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    Sure, but that's not a function of user/kernel space; Linux has live patching and dbus doesn't. It would be cool if fuchsia makes every OS component support non-disruptive updates, I'm just trying to point out that that doesn't automatically follow from running parts in user space.
    - tmikaeld 5y ago
      Good point, updated my reply. While Google don't explicitly say that they want to support run-time updates of the kernel and OS; it's implied in their system architecture that such is the case.
      - 5y ago

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

> If interested, you can configure your Workstation to receive automatic updates. If it stays here, I'm 100% on board; I wouldn't even mind defaulting to on. Forced automatic updates (hi, Microsoft) are a terrible move. I would also say that separating bug/security fixes from features and breaking changes helps, if my OS vendor had a way to auto-patch only security issues, and could ensure zero breakage as a result - no new features, no changing UX, nothing but invisible security patches - I'd enable it in a heartbeat. And they won't, so I won't:)

khimaros 5y ago
it sounds like you're looking for debian stable ;)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

j-james 5y ago

It makes sense if Fuchsia's main use cases are IoT devices, given how common public-facing vulnerable IoT devices made by defunct companies there are. It also makes sense if Fuchsia eventually replaces Linux as the Android kernel, given the historical short EoLs and lack of security updates (see: https://androidvulnerabilities.org https://androidvulnerabilities.org). For a development machine, I'd honestly... be pretty fine with it. That's similar to how Arch Linux operates (but change hourly to daily or weekly) and it causes very few problems. I think I've had maybe two or three big issues caused by updates in the past year, plus a couple application-specific issues (not kernel-level or os-level). With a more extensive regression testing team I can see Fuchsia following through with the promise of seamless updates. Windows updates also have possibly the worst reputation you can get (except, maybe, iOS update's reputation when Apple was slowing down older devices), so almost anything Google does will be better. Not needing to reboot (presumably, if they're checking every hour) after an update will also help.

thereisnospork 5y ago

I find them awful. Even ignoring the philosophical "it's my machine dammit, it'll update when I damn well want it to and not before" POV[0] it is a practical mess on[1] two fronts: 1. I use my windows machine for computation, ergo it needs to be running, and it costs me money and productivity when it is not. If it restarts to update, I lose hours at minimum of cpu-time and more until I notice and can get things restarted. 2. It makes what should be core user functionality useless. I would like to set up my desktop, with some programs open, a few spreadsheets mayhaps, browser to discord, reddit, HN, etc. Maybe a second desktop relegated to some other task. I can't do this, because windows will force a restart in the next 144 hours which will invariably fubar anything I've tried to set up. [0]To which I strongly adhere. [1]At least.

viraptor 5y ago

Windows updates are unpopular due to their implementation. Among other issues: they require a restart, they run complicated transactional flow rather than snapshots + patching the files, they kill the desktop state, they require extra processing on the next startup right as you want to actually do work, the whole delivery system is super complicated to suit enterprises, and yet it is still not able to handle user apps in the same flow. If they implemented a proper A/B booting with preserving the intent/state of open apps most people wouldn't even realise an update happened and wouldn't complain.

agloeregrets 5y ago

I would imagine any consumer product running it would work like ChromeOS with a second system library that gets updated in the background and then swapped in at boot. Windows update is hated for how bad the implementation is..but people also don't like having out of date software and features.

Iolaum 5y ago

The problem is that automatic updates are both feature updates and security updates. I doubt many people will have a problem with security updates that have no impact on the feature space. But feature updates tend to break UX flows and not many people are happy about that.Your comment about corporate control also applies to feature updates.