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Not saying Google is in the right here by any means, but I'm a bit suspicious of these complaints where the party curiously omits the details of why they were b

Not saying Google is in the right here by any means, but I'm a bit suspicious of these complaints where the party curiously omits the details of why they were banned, the nature of their previous earnings, etc.

alsetmusic 5y ago
> I'm a bit suspicious of these complaints where the party curiously omits the details of why they were banned I read it as the dev had no warning or explanation.
- vhold 5y ago
  The image of the email he did post says he received previous emails with the reason.
  - Beltalowda 5y ago
    Other people have gotten similar worded emails, but never received any previous emails. For example when the account of simple-keyboard's dev got banned: https://github.com/rkkr/simple-keyboard/issues/333 https://github.com/rkkr/simple-keyboard/issues/333 Maybe there were previous emails, maybe not. I wouldn't put too much stock in that sentence.
whatshisface 5y ago
>curiously omits the details of why they were banned That's a difficult thing to accomplish when Google has not provided them the details of why they were banned.
- zuminator 5y ago
  Maybe not, but it stretches credulity that they have absolutely no idea, not even a guess, as to the cause. The ban letter says they previously received other notices. Where are they? And what steps, if any, did they take to resolve then? They don't even describe their app, which ordinarily would seen like the first thing to do to establish the injustice of the affair. "My app just makes generative cat photos. What's ban-worthy about that?"
  - ycombigator 5y ago
    Does it though...
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Maybe not, but it stretches credulity that they have absolutely no idea, not even a guess, as to the cause. It doesn't, actually. Everything I've read about Google indicates they're extremely opaque and will ban for bizarre reasons. Google itself might not even know. After all, machine learning isn't known for being able to explain itself. > The ban letter says they previously received other notices. Where are they? IIRC, I understand that someones those notices come all at once at the same time as the ban, if they come at all. It's also quite possible that the ban message from Google is in fact inaccurate. > And what steps, if any, did they take to resolve then? What steps could they take? My understanding is that Google offers no recourse to a human, and their automated appeals process might as well be a "reject all" rule (if it isn't literally that). You seem to be operating under the assumption that Google has implemented a fair and reasonable process, so the onus is on the person who runs afoul of it. However, everything I've read has led me to believe Google doesn't have a fair and reasonable process, because they rely too-heavily on algorithms and automation.
    - zuminator 5y ago
      Thanks for the disagreement; those are all very reasonable points. However I reiterate I'm not condoning Google's behavior. Rather, I'm talking about the app-creator's own lack of transparency in trying to make his case. He should be more forthcoming to his audience about the nature of his app and whether in his estimation there was anything potentially illegal or objectionable about it. And if not, state so unambiguously. This is information he could convey regardless of how opaque Google's own process is.
    - tluyben2 5y ago
      > After all, machine learning isn't known for being able to explain itself. Indeed; it is just multiple flagging by ML and that is it. Not much you or anyone can do.
- chrisan 5y ago
  The very email he posts clearly say "Prior violations ... as outlined in previous emails sent" It sounds like he has violated something multiple times and was told what was in violation but he is choosing not to share this part of the story
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    My Adsense was banned (many years ago) with similar wording and yet I was never given a real reason. The final termination email said the reason was outlined in earlier emails, but it was not actionable detail; the previous emails just said ‘click fraud’. We were getting millions of clicks a month from visitors to the content on our sites so there was nothing actionable we could do. Despite removing ads completely but that is not really a solution. So it is not so clear if they received anything useful before or not. They did use ads and the ads team is quite trigger happy, which is interesting because competitors can indeed cancel your business by creating click fraud. The ‘AI’ can detect click fraud, but cannot filter it (wat?) so this happens a lot.
  - TomSwirly 5y ago
    > The very email he posts clearly say "Prior violations ... as outlined in previous emails sent" I helped someone out with a similar issue, a friend of mine who was doing something very very uncontroversial. The "previous messages" had no extra information at all except, "You might have broken our terms of service with this page" - a link to their main page, with no additional information.
jbirer 5y ago
And the addition of the part with not being able to feed a family, smells very strongly of cheap manipulation and attempt to brigade.

alsetmusic 5y ago

> I'm a bit suspicious of these complaints where the party curiously omits the details of why they were banned I read it as the dev had no warning or explanation.

vhold 5y ago
The image of the email he did post says he received previous emails with the reason.
- Beltalowda 5y ago
  Other people have gotten similar worded emails, but never received any previous emails. For example when the account of simple-keyboard's dev got banned: https://github.com/rkkr/simple-keyboard/issues/333 https://github.com/rkkr/simple-keyboard/issues/333 Maybe there were previous emails, maybe not. I wouldn't put too much stock in that sentence.

whatshisface 5y ago

>curiously omits the details of why they were banned That's a difficult thing to accomplish when Google has not provided them the details of why they were banned.

zuminator 5y ago
Maybe not, but it stretches credulity that they have absolutely no idea, not even a guess, as to the cause. The ban letter says they previously received other notices. Where are they? And what steps, if any, did they take to resolve then? They don't even describe their app, which ordinarily would seen like the first thing to do to establish the injustice of the affair. "My app just makes generative cat photos. What's ban-worthy about that?"
- ycombigator 5y ago
  Does it though...
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Maybe not, but it stretches credulity that they have absolutely no idea, not even a guess, as to the cause. It doesn't, actually. Everything I've read about Google indicates they're extremely opaque and will ban for bizarre reasons. Google itself might not even know. After all, machine learning isn't known for being able to explain itself. > The ban letter says they previously received other notices. Where are they? IIRC, I understand that someones those notices come all at once at the same time as the ban, if they come at all. It's also quite possible that the ban message from Google is in fact inaccurate. > And what steps, if any, did they take to resolve then? What steps could they take? My understanding is that Google offers no recourse to a human, and their automated appeals process might as well be a "reject all" rule (if it isn't literally that). You seem to be operating under the assumption that Google has implemented a fair and reasonable process, so the onus is on the person who runs afoul of it. However, everything I've read has led me to believe Google doesn't have a fair and reasonable process, because they rely too-heavily on algorithms and automation.
  - zuminator 5y ago
    Thanks for the disagreement; those are all very reasonable points. However I reiterate I'm not condoning Google's behavior. Rather, I'm talking about the app-creator's own lack of transparency in trying to make his case. He should be more forthcoming to his audience about the nature of his app and whether in his estimation there was anything potentially illegal or objectionable about it. And if not, state so unambiguously. This is information he could convey regardless of how opaque Google's own process is.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    > After all, machine learning isn't known for being able to explain itself. Indeed; it is just multiple flagging by ML and that is it. Not much you or anyone can do.
chrisan 5y ago
The very email he posts clearly say "Prior violations ... as outlined in previous emails sent" It sounds like he has violated something multiple times and was told what was in violation but he is choosing not to share this part of the story
- tluyben2 5y ago
  My Adsense was banned (many years ago) with similar wording and yet I was never given a real reason. The final termination email said the reason was outlined in earlier emails, but it was not actionable detail; the previous emails just said ‘click fraud’. We were getting millions of clicks a month from visitors to the content on our sites so there was nothing actionable we could do. Despite removing ads completely but that is not really a solution. So it is not so clear if they received anything useful before or not. They did use ads and the ads team is quite trigger happy, which is interesting because competitors can indeed cancel your business by creating click fraud. The ‘AI’ can detect click fraud, but cannot filter it (wat?) so this happens a lot.
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  > The very email he posts clearly say "Prior violations ... as outlined in previous emails sent" I helped someone out with a similar issue, a friend of mine who was doing something very very uncontroversial. The "previous messages" had no extra information at all except, "You might have broken our terms of service with this page" - a link to their main page, with no additional information.

jbirer 5y ago

And the addition of the part with not being able to feed a family, smells very strongly of cheap manipulation and attempt to brigade.