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> Contrary to Google Don't know that I really agree with this. Google does have experimental services and tools that they've killed (RIP Google Reader), but th

> Contrary to Google Don't know that I really agree with this. Google does have experimental services and tools that they've killed (RIP Google Reader), but they have always provided migration for their core services. Look at Messaging, for example. Gmail chat -> Hangouts -> Hangouts Chat(?) -> Allo(??) -> Hangouts (again?) -> Android Messages. The problem is not that they leave users completely stranded, the unending shift from app to app for no good reason is itself the problem. And to be clear I do think Google is worse at this than Microsoft is. But the important difference isn't over whether they provide a migration path. Forcing your users to migrate every year or two is bad, regardless of whether the migration is handled "well".

blagie 5y ago
Nope. I've been left stranded by Google over and over. Talk to all the happy GSuite/Free users around now. Or people who developed Chrome Extensions prior to Manifest V3. Or who were banned from Google Fi, Youtube, or your app store of choice by an automated, broken algorithm. Or who developed Workspace Docs prior to mandatory security audits at price points which will break most independent developers. Or.... The key difference is Microsoft has exactly 2 or 3 things on the entire list where any users were left stranded. For Google, you're a statistic. If a change breaks 10,000 small businesses, Google looks at the impact on their bottom line, and goes ahead with the change. Microsoft bends over backwards to NOT do this. AWS as well. It's not that it never happens, but if you've bet on your business on Google, you're basically guaranteed it will happen at one point or another.
- bscphil 5y ago
  I think you're lashing out at Google for a variety of different (and very good!) reasons, but they're outside the range of my comment. People getting banned from Google services because of broken automation is bad, of course, but it has nothing to do with the issue of whether migration paths are provided when services are sunsetted at Google. My point is that for Google's core services, they generally due try to migrate users to a product that provides the same basic features, but that this isn't good enough. Forcing users to migrate because of pointless churn in your app offerings is already the problem, regardless of whether the migrations are handled well. Google is worse than Microsoft in this area not because they leave users stranded (usually), but because they're constantly switching their focus in products like messaging.
  - pishpash 5y ago
    That's a shallow distinction. The constant migration is because internally teams are abandoning projects. Whether another team picks up a similar project is a secondary process, and may not happen, then you have a killed product. This is a completely different process than a company deciding to go in a different business direction or making a technical decision to change. Eventually these "core products" will be abandoned, because let's face it, they are not even core products. Core product for GOOG is ads. And that's the difference.
    - chipsa 5y ago
      Only things I trust google to keep up at this point is stuff that makes them lots of money(ads) or that they use massively internally(Gmail)
  - exodust 5y ago
    > "they generally do try to migrate users to a product that provides the same basic features" Try telling that to Picasa users. When Google announced it was "moving on from Picasa", they stated: "We apologize for any inconvenience this transition causes, but.... Google Photos is a new and smarter product that offers a better platform for us..." A better platform for Google. Not users. Many Picasa users, like my father, were left frustrated and confused by the change. He was not a "cloud user" of anything, and he took lots of hi-res photos and wanted to manage them locally. Picasa failed to install on Windows 10, and some people were even rolling back to Windows 7/8 just so they could keep using the Picasa application. I hope you don't consider migration from locally controlled photo management to the cloud as "generally the same features", because it isn't.
    - mnsc 5y ago
      Picasa taught me to not trust Google and yet I kinda fell for the "unlimited backup of your photos" in "photos". Which were unlimited until it weren't. And now my storage is full and Google is repeatedly threatening to drop emails because they share the same storage.
    - 5y ago
DoctorOW 5y ago
I feel like your example disproves more than it proves. The difference between Micrsoft Edge and Edge Chromium was that one day you launched the browser and it looked/worked a little different. Using Google for chat on the other hand is still extremely difficult because there is no clear path (as indicated by all your question marks) who is to migrate where and when they're supposed to do it.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  This isnt really true though. For the main use case (IM and VC), Gchat -> hangouts -> chat/meet is pretty straightforward. Heck most people probably didn't notice the migration happening!
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    Define "most people"? Average Android users, maybe had a clean migration? On iOS (or worse Windows) you had to seek out new apps each time and there was nothing but confusion. Both platforms, at least in the US, have more than their fair share to be considered statistically significant to "most people" and "I need to find and install some new app" is certainly much more friction than "didn't notice the migration happening". (Not to mention anecdotally, my GChat experience was through XMPP federation and was amazing while it lasted and I entirely got stranded by the "migration" to Hangouts. Everything including my contacts list was in XMPP. I know that I'm statistically insignificant to Google in that transition and statistically insignificant to "most people", but I also wasn't the only person stranded that way.)

blagie 5y ago

Nope. I've been left stranded by Google over and over. Talk to all the happy GSuite/Free users around now. Or people who developed Chrome Extensions prior to Manifest V3. Or who were banned from Google Fi, Youtube, or your app store of choice by an automated, broken algorithm. Or who developed Workspace Docs prior to mandatory security audits at price points which will break most independent developers. Or.... The key difference is Microsoft has exactly 2 or 3 things on the entire list where any users were left stranded. For Google, you're a statistic. If a change breaks 10,000 small businesses, Google looks at the impact on their bottom line, and goes ahead with the change. Microsoft bends over backwards to NOT do this. AWS as well. It's not that it never happens, but if you've bet on your business on Google, you're basically guaranteed it will happen at one point or another.

bscphil 5y ago
I think you're lashing out at Google for a variety of different (and very good!) reasons, but they're outside the range of my comment. People getting banned from Google services because of broken automation is bad, of course, but it has nothing to do with the issue of whether migration paths are provided when services are sunsetted at Google. My point is that for Google's core services, they generally due try to migrate users to a product that provides the same basic features, but that this isn't good enough. Forcing users to migrate because of pointless churn in your app offerings is already the problem, regardless of whether the migrations are handled well. Google is worse than Microsoft in this area not because they leave users stranded (usually), but because they're constantly switching their focus in products like messaging.
- pishpash 5y ago
  That's a shallow distinction. The constant migration is because internally teams are abandoning projects. Whether another team picks up a similar project is a secondary process, and may not happen, then you have a killed product. This is a completely different process than a company deciding to go in a different business direction or making a technical decision to change. Eventually these "core products" will be abandoned, because let's face it, they are not even core products. Core product for GOOG is ads. And that's the difference.
  - chipsa 5y ago
    Only things I trust google to keep up at this point is stuff that makes them lots of money(ads) or that they use massively internally(Gmail)
- exodust 5y ago
  > "they generally do try to migrate users to a product that provides the same basic features" Try telling that to Picasa users. When Google announced it was "moving on from Picasa", they stated: "We apologize for any inconvenience this transition causes, but.... Google Photos is a new and smarter product that offers a better platform for us..." A better platform for Google. Not users. Many Picasa users, like my father, were left frustrated and confused by the change. He was not a "cloud user" of anything, and he took lots of hi-res photos and wanted to manage them locally. Picasa failed to install on Windows 10, and some people were even rolling back to Windows 7/8 just so they could keep using the Picasa application. I hope you don't consider migration from locally controlled photo management to the cloud as "generally the same features", because it isn't.
  - mnsc 5y ago
    Picasa taught me to not trust Google and yet I kinda fell for the "unlimited backup of your photos" in "photos". Which were unlimited until it weren't. And now my storage is full and Google is repeatedly threatening to drop emails because they share the same storage.
  - 5y ago

DoctorOW 5y ago

I feel like your example disproves more than it proves. The difference between Micrsoft Edge and Edge Chromium was that one day you launched the browser and it looked/worked a little different. Using Google for chat on the other hand is still extremely difficult because there is no clear path (as indicated by all your question marks) who is to migrate where and when they're supposed to do it.

joshuamorton 5y ago
This isnt really true though. For the main use case (IM and VC), Gchat -> hangouts -> chat/meet is pretty straightforward. Heck most people probably didn't notice the migration happening!
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Define "most people"? Average Android users, maybe had a clean migration? On iOS (or worse Windows) you had to seek out new apps each time and there was nothing but confusion. Both platforms, at least in the US, have more than their fair share to be considered statistically significant to "most people" and "I need to find and install some new app" is certainly much more friction than "didn't notice the migration happening". (Not to mention anecdotally, my GChat experience was through XMPP federation and was amazing while it lasted and I entirely got stranded by the "migration" to Hangouts. Everything including my contacts list was in XMPP. I know that I'm statistically insignificant to Google in that transition and statistically insignificant to "most people", but I also wasn't the only person stranded that way.)