>I always look forward to condescending GNOME apologists to reply to my comments. Stop. This is nonsense and adds nothing to the discussion, it's like if I sta

>I always look forward to condescending GNOME apologists to reply to my comments. Stop. This is nonsense and adds nothing to the discussion, it's like if I started off immediately dismissing you as a "GTK3 apologist" or something like that. If you have a history of getting hostile replies, your confrontational attitude is directly the reason why, and it's something only you have the power to change. >Then why was it working fine in GTK3? Sounds to me like someone made a breaking change, and didn't anticipate the consequences. Yes, that's what happened. The whole renderer was changed to a hardware accelerated one. >The solution is to roll things back That's not possible because the renderer touches the entire project. It's probably the main feature of GTK4. >Unfortunately, the GNOME developers are more interested in scorching earth than they are in maintaining a well-made desktop. Please avoid these comments. This is a pretty meaningless generalization and adds nothing to the discussion. Just like any large project, there are some GNOME developers that focus on new features and some that focus on maintenance. >Oh, and it's not because it's a "hard issue" to fix No, this is extremely wrong. The issue actually is that hard. If you are a font rendering expert and you believe the issue is easy to fix, then please submit your own PR. I'll be the first in line to try it if you do. >There is not a single application written with GTK3 that can stop me from changing it's theme. I'm sorry if you disagree, but that's just an outright lie (I say this as someone who actually writes GTK3 code). No, this is also extremely wrong. Any external configuration method you use, a GTK3 application can override it or disable it. I'm not disagreeing and this isn't a lie, this is an actual fact of the toolkit. Feel free to list any of them and I'll explain how it can be trivially disabled. >...and I can override it again. I'm sorry, now it sounds like you're agreeing with me. >Correction, it doesn't help you. No, this has nothing to do with me. You sound like you were interested exploring GTK4 at some point, if you're still interested, then you'll eventually have to take steps to address the issues. If you don't want those then I don't see what your issue is, your original comment seems to be making assertions about nothing in that case. >That seems to be a recurring trend when negotiating with GNOME/GTK developers. This sentence right here illustrates the main mistake you've made. GTK is an open source project, by choosing to use it you're not entering in any "negotiation" with anybody. It's a take it or leave it proposition, and that's the way it's always been. >I'm perfectly satisfied taking matters into my own hands since they'll ignore me anyways. In the long run, that approach isn't sustainable. I find that most open source projects including GTK or Qt or any of those other toolkits won't ignore you if you have something useful to add or can take real steps towards correcting the issues that you're having. But being combative and approaching everything as a "negotiation" is the exact wrong thing to do and is probably the root cause if you find yourself getting ignored. Don't do that. You are making everything worse for yourself. >What features are there, right now? As previously mentioned, there is the hardware renderer with improved performance. There is also the multimedia framework and the new, faster list models. Those are the big features that I know of. It's absolutely fine if you don't want any of those, by all means stay on GTK3. But if you do want those eventually, then you'll need a plan to migrate. >ignoring everyone who doesn't throw away their current workflow to live in GNOME-land What I was saying is that those people don't have to affect you. You can use GTK3 or GTK4 or whatever without dealing with them. >Worse text rendering? Less accessibility features? More extreme, abrasive maintainers and fewer people writing code? A worse native experience, more middleware and less software freedom? Less native packaging? More Flatpak bloat? Worse touchscreen compatibility and an increasingly fractured codebase? More broken custom widgets that don't adhere to the GNOME HIG? An uglier, flatter overall design philosophy? Militant users and developers who hunt people down when they express their feelings about software they used to use on Hacker News? To hit this in order: The old text rendering can be restored with a flag. The accessibility is actually improved because of the removal of Atk which had some major issues. The maintainers are the same people and it's about the same amount of people writing code. There isn't any more middleware than GTK3. The "software freedom" is the same, it has the same license. Nothing has changed with native packaging, Flatpak is completely optional. The touchscreen compatibility has actually gotten better. The situation with custom widgets hasn't changed from GTK3. The design philosophy in GTK itself hasn't changed, that only affects libadwaita. I'm happy for you to express your feelings but this whole paragraph and some of your previous comment are unhinged and unreasonable. >Unless you start acknowledging the pragmatic reality of GTK's end-users, GNOME will continue to hemorrhage maintainers and stir up unnecessary and counterproductive drama for the sake of a few people's ego. This kind of sounds like a threat, you should delete your comment or reword this. It's also pretty unhinged and unprofessional. Also you appear to be under the false impression that I'm a GNOME or GTK developer. I'm just another app developer, in the same boat as you.