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Firefox would still have declined, that's kind of unavoidable with Google owning Android, but Mozilla wasn't helping here. Turning Firfox into a lame Chrome-clo

Firefox would still have declined, that's kind of unavoidable with Google owning Android, but Mozilla wasn't helping here. Turning Firfox into a lame Chrome-clone by removing everything that made it unique in the first place just ensured that there was no more need to bother with Firefox. Loading the browser up with all kind of telemetry, cloud nonsense and ads also removed any desire to ever bother with it again. I still think there is plenty of room for a privacy respecting browser in the market, but Mozilla hasn't even been trying to fill that niche in years and still claiming to do so just makes them look like untrustworthy liar.

yoavm 5y ago
We hackers like to complain about stuff that bother us, but the truth is they don't bother anyone else but us. Firefox didn't lose marketshare to Chrome because it had telemetry. Users don't care about it, and if they did, they'd know Chrome is doing it much worse. Same for "cloud nonsense and ads" - you really think they disliked it so much, so they went to Chrome were they are forcefully logged-in, have every action linked to their Google account and have inferior adblockers? C'mon. It's kinda like saying "I'm moving to North Korea because freedom of speech in the US sucks!"
- grumbel 5y ago
  People that don't care are already well served by Chrome, they are never going to switch, so there is little point in catering to them. People that do care however aren't well served by Firefox, that's an issue. Every thread about Firefox is filled with complains, be it removal of essential feature, shifting around the UI for no reason or addition of stuff nobody asks for. Not every user might care about every of those issues, but do you think that amount of negative feedback is good for attracting new users or keeping existing ones? I don't. Also the level Firefox has sunken too is mislabeling the Screenshot cloud upload button "Save". That's plain old malware dark pattern strategy to steal your data. They took almost a year to fix that and it's downright puzzling how that ever made it anywhere near a release in the first place. Chrome might be crap, but I am not going anywhere near Firefox anytime soon either. They have shown time and time again that they really aren't on my side, yet love to claim so. The sooner we get rid of Firefox, the sooner there is a chance a real alternative might arise.
  - yoavm 5y ago
    So what are you using now? Is Chrome on your side? IMHO, the _moment_ we get rid of Firefox, the _moment_ we lost the free web. Building a web browser is just too damn hard, and never again would free software stand a chance. All will be Chrome-based, and Google will decide what "standards" to adhere to while it sits in a committee with itself.
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      The thing about Chrome is that it's a known evil. Google monitors me and sells me ads. OK, not exactly benevolent, but I can live with it. I'd prefer they just charge me $100/yr or whatever instead of ads, but at the end of the day it's a tradeoff I can accept. The thing about Firefox is that it's an UNKNOWN evil. Mozilla always feel like it's on the cusp of bankruptcy and constantly searching for new dark patterns to sneak in. When Wikipedia needs money they beg for it, but don't purposely sabotage the user experience to get funding. Mozilla does that with every new release. I always feel like they've added some shady new malware/adware with every new patch, and then use some stupid UI tweak to try to hide it. It's only a matter of time before they sneak Norton in there. I trust the Firefox team even less than Facebook at this point. Firefox just isn't trustworthy, whereas Chrome is a known compromise.
      - dantondwa 5y ago
        You confused the business model. Google doesn’t sell YOU ads. You provide valuable behavioural data to Google, which uses it to create very targeted demographics which are used for targeted advertising and analytics that are sold to advertisers. Seen in this way, it’s quite darker than that, in my opinion.
        technobabbler 5y ago
        Sorry, meant to say "show me ads". But yes, it's still an acceptable tradeoff to me. I mean, our own government harvests even more data and does jack shit with it. At least Google provides a world-class office suite. Was forced to used the Microsoft stack at a new job and it made me miss the Google ecosystem so much. At the end of the day privacy isn't that valuable to people. Nobody cared about it in the 90s when the internet was developing, it was barely a blip in the 2000s, and somehow it exploded in the 2010s but plenty of people still use Facebook and TikTok and such. So? Usability > privacy for most people, a lesson Firefox refuses to acknowledge, I guess.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Meh, long before I was a dev, I was a user... and it's true I didn't care about telemetry, but a HUGE difference is that Google's services were USEFUL. Syncing passwords, extensions, bookmarks etc. were automatic, easy, unintrusive, etc. Staying logged into my Google account meant I could auto login to Gmail, GDrive, GSheets, Geverything else along with a bunch of social logins on other websites. Firefox Sync eventually arrived, but it was a PITA to set up because I didn't need a Firefox account for anything else. And then they added a bunch of third party services that I still don't know what they do (Pocket), ads on the main screen, ads on startup, full-page release nags for pointless features, constantly changing UI for no good reason at all... It was like Chrome took Phoenix's philosophy and Firefox tried to become Netscape Communicator again. Zero of the Firefox features added in the last decade helped me as a user, but instead constantly bugged me. I can't remember a single annoying thing that Chrome added in the same timeframe. It still feels leaner, quicker, and less intrusive. Funny how the sides have switched...

yoavm 5y ago

We hackers like to complain about stuff that bother us, but the truth is they don't bother anyone else but us. Firefox didn't lose marketshare to Chrome because it had telemetry. Users don't care about it, and if they did, they'd know Chrome is doing it much worse. Same for "cloud nonsense and ads" - you really think they disliked it so much, so they went to Chrome were they are forcefully logged-in, have every action linked to their Google account and have inferior adblockers? C'mon. It's kinda like saying "I'm moving to North Korea because freedom of speech in the US sucks!"

grumbel 5y ago
People that don't care are already well served by Chrome, they are never going to switch, so there is little point in catering to them. People that do care however aren't well served by Firefox, that's an issue. Every thread about Firefox is filled with complains, be it removal of essential feature, shifting around the UI for no reason or addition of stuff nobody asks for. Not every user might care about every of those issues, but do you think that amount of negative feedback is good for attracting new users or keeping existing ones? I don't. Also the level Firefox has sunken too is mislabeling the Screenshot cloud upload button "Save". That's plain old malware dark pattern strategy to steal your data. They took almost a year to fix that and it's downright puzzling how that ever made it anywhere near a release in the first place. Chrome might be crap, but I am not going anywhere near Firefox anytime soon either. They have shown time and time again that they really aren't on my side, yet love to claim so. The sooner we get rid of Firefox, the sooner there is a chance a real alternative might arise.
- yoavm 5y ago
  So what are you using now? Is Chrome on your side? IMHO, the _moment_ we get rid of Firefox, the _moment_ we lost the free web. Building a web browser is just too damn hard, and never again would free software stand a chance. All will be Chrome-based, and Google will decide what "standards" to adhere to while it sits in a committee with itself.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    The thing about Chrome is that it's a known evil. Google monitors me and sells me ads. OK, not exactly benevolent, but I can live with it. I'd prefer they just charge me $100/yr or whatever instead of ads, but at the end of the day it's a tradeoff I can accept. The thing about Firefox is that it's an UNKNOWN evil. Mozilla always feel like it's on the cusp of bankruptcy and constantly searching for new dark patterns to sneak in. When Wikipedia needs money they beg for it, but don't purposely sabotage the user experience to get funding. Mozilla does that with every new release. I always feel like they've added some shady new malware/adware with every new patch, and then use some stupid UI tweak to try to hide it. It's only a matter of time before they sneak Norton in there. I trust the Firefox team even less than Facebook at this point. Firefox just isn't trustworthy, whereas Chrome is a known compromise.
    - dantondwa 5y ago
      You confused the business model. Google doesn’t sell YOU ads. You provide valuable behavioural data to Google, which uses it to create very targeted demographics which are used for targeted advertising and analytics that are sold to advertisers. Seen in this way, it’s quite darker than that, in my opinion.
      - technobabbler 5y ago
        Sorry, meant to say "show me ads". But yes, it's still an acceptable tradeoff to me. I mean, our own government harvests even more data and does jack shit with it. At least Google provides a world-class office suite. Was forced to used the Microsoft stack at a new job and it made me miss the Google ecosystem so much. At the end of the day privacy isn't that valuable to people. Nobody cared about it in the 90s when the internet was developing, it was barely a blip in the 2000s, and somehow it exploded in the 2010s but plenty of people still use Facebook and TikTok and such. So? Usability > privacy for most people, a lesson Firefox refuses to acknowledge, I guess.
technobabbler 5y ago
Meh, long before I was a dev, I was a user... and it's true I didn't care about telemetry, but a HUGE difference is that Google's services were USEFUL. Syncing passwords, extensions, bookmarks etc. were automatic, easy, unintrusive, etc. Staying logged into my Google account meant I could auto login to Gmail, GDrive, GSheets, Geverything else along with a bunch of social logins on other websites. Firefox Sync eventually arrived, but it was a PITA to set up because I didn't need a Firefox account for anything else. And then they added a bunch of third party services that I still don't know what they do (Pocket), ads on the main screen, ads on startup, full-page release nags for pointless features, constantly changing UI for no good reason at all... It was like Chrome took Phoenix's philosophy and Firefox tried to become Netscape Communicator again. Zero of the Firefox features added in the last decade helped me as a user, but instead constantly bugged me. I can't remember a single annoying thing that Chrome added in the same timeframe. It still feels leaner, quicker, and less intrusive. Funny how the sides have switched...