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>>Yes, apple does not have the power to not literally force you to do anything, which is an improvement over feudalism. However, if you take apple alongside all

>>Yes, apple does not have the power to not literally force you to do anything, which is an improvement over feudalism. However, if you take apple alongside all their inputs, what you have is an extractive model where shareholders capture the value created by employees and suppliers, and the employees of those suppliers are often the ones being ruthlessly exploited (the aforementioned cobalt miners, Chinese factory workers, etc). The activity of Apple is massively beneficial to China, and the other suppliers downstream of it. You're simply accepting the Marxist principle that profit is exploitation, and harmful to society, which is not economically valid, and oblivious to the facts around the impact of foreign investment in countries like China. >>Real wages in the USA have stagnated since the 1960s [1] as neoliberal (aka libertarian) policies have been implemented. This is incredibly misinformed. First of all, that link looks at wages, not compensation. The non-wage component of compensation has grown more rapidly than the wage component of compensation. Looking solely at wages, instead of compensation as a whole, is seemingly a deliberate choice to give people a sense of being victimized. Second, the USA is NOT the world, and it has NOT implemented libertarian policies since 1960. Market rights have been increasingly encroached upon since 1960, as a result of politically instituted government interventions, that according to basic economics, reduce productivity growth, exacerbate income inequality, or both. Two major examples: 1. The rapid rise of social democracy: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-longrun https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long... Which is feeding the emergence of a highly paid cadre of government workers: https://www.hoover.org/research/140000-year-why-are-government-workers-california-paid-twice-much-private-sector-workers https://www.hoover.org/research/140000-year-why-are-governme... To say nothing of the rapid expansion of the regulatory bureaucracy, and the barriers to competition it creates for major private sector incumbents, and highly paid consultants/lawyers/lobbyists who know how to navigate it. 2. The rapid increase in land-use restrictions in the major high-productivity population centers, which according to many analyses, has massively increased income inequality, while inhibiting productivity growth. E.g. this study estimates that reducing land-use restrictions in just three cities: New York, San Francisco and San Jose would increase GDP by 36.3 percent: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/mac.20170388 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/mac.20170388 This finding was echoed by the White House's Council of Economic Advisers in 2016: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/images/Housing_Development_Toolkit%20f.2.pdf https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/fi... The world at large, which has moved more toward libertarianism since 1990, has seen the most rapid rise in wage growth in human history over the last 30 years: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-global-war-on-poverty https://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-gl...

beaconstudios 5y ago
I actually don't care about profit, I care about how it's distributed - it should be given to the people who generated it. That's not how capitalism works. You can't honestly say that the Reagan era led to increases in regulation? I don't support regulations uncritically, I think rent control plus NIMBYism is a disaster. You'd ideally want to build more accommodation, preferably apartment blocks over single family. I'll admit I'm not a policy wonk so I don't know how non wage compensation plays into it. I do know that the American healthcare system is fucked and should be transitioned to a single payer system. Your other comment about about cooperatives and labour rights was just the perfect market fallacy and completely a historical, respectively, so doesn't merit further analysis. I've given so many examples of people being victimised in this thread, you just keep restating your opinions and moving on when I show my point so it's pretty clear you're unmovable in your ideology so there's no point continuing with this. I didn't engage with this thread to debate with libertarians when my established premise was that libertarians never move from their positions.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>That's not how capitalism works. Like I said, your explanation for that not being how capitalism works, which was: >>However, if you take apple alongside all their inputs, what you have is an extractive model where shareholders capture the value created by employees and suppliers, and the employees of those suppliers are often the ones being ruthlessly exploited (the aforementioned cobalt miners, Chinese factory workers, etc). Is straight Marxist exploitation theory, and it's not grounded in the scientific consensus on Economics. It discounts the value of saving capital, and risking it on a venture, that the investor provides. It assumes wage earners do not benefit from profit-motivated investments, unless they share in the profits of the enterprise they are employed in, which is totally contradicted by basic economic theory, and a mountain of evidence of the last two hundred years. >>You can't honestly say that the Reagan era led to increases in regulation? The Reagan era experienced a quantifiable increase in regulations: https://regulatorystudies.columbian.gwu.edu/reg-stats https://regulatorystudies.columbian.gwu.edu/reg-stats One of the most far-reaching healthcare regulations was enacted during the Reagan era: https://www.athenahealth.com/knowledge-hub/practice-management/expert-forum-rise-and-rise-healthcare-administrator https://www.athenahealth.com/knowledge-hub/practice-manageme... >>Supporters say the growing number of administrators is needed to keep pace with the drastic changes in healthcare delivery during that timeframe, particularly change driven by technology and by ever-more-complex regulations. (To cite just a few industry-disrupting regulations, consider the Prospective Payment System of 1983 [1]; the Health Insurance Portability & Accountability Act of 1996 [2]; and the Health Information Technology for Economic and Clinical Act of 2009. [3]) Beyond federal regulations, state and local regulations increased as well. The land-use study I linked to earlier explains how much land-use restrictions, enacted at the local government level, have increased since 1960, and how much this has contributed to income inequality and productivity growth stagnation. Those who benefit from centralized government control over society, e.g. the public sector unions and a fully unionized mainstream media, have completely taken over the narrative, and have convinced the masses that what the US experienced since 1960 was a move toward libertarianism.. It's an outrageous piece of misinformation/swindling-of-the-public. >>Your other comment about about cooperatives and labour rights was just the perfect market fallacy and completely a historical, respectively, so doesn't merit further analysis. Pure Dunning-Kruger over-confidence. [1] https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-payment/prospmedicarefeesvcpmtgen https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-paymen... [2] https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/laws-regulations/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/laws-reg... [3] https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/special-topics/hitech-act-enforcement-interim-final-rule/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/special-topics/h...

beaconstudios 5y ago

I actually don't care about profit, I care about how it's distributed - it should be given to the people who generated it. That's not how capitalism works. You can't honestly say that the Reagan era led to increases in regulation? I don't support regulations uncritically, I think rent control plus NIMBYism is a disaster. You'd ideally want to build more accommodation, preferably apartment blocks over single family. I'll admit I'm not a policy wonk so I don't know how non wage compensation plays into it. I do know that the American healthcare system is fucked and should be transitioned to a single payer system. Your other comment about about cooperatives and labour rights was just the perfect market fallacy and completely a historical, respectively, so doesn't merit further analysis. I've given so many examples of people being victimised in this thread, you just keep restating your opinions and moving on when I show my point so it's pretty clear you're unmovable in your ideology so there's no point continuing with this. I didn't engage with this thread to debate with libertarians when my established premise was that libertarians never move from their positions.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
>>That's not how capitalism works. Like I said, your explanation for that not being how capitalism works, which was: >>However, if you take apple alongside all their inputs, what you have is an extractive model where shareholders capture the value created by employees and suppliers, and the employees of those suppliers are often the ones being ruthlessly exploited (the aforementioned cobalt miners, Chinese factory workers, etc). Is straight Marxist exploitation theory, and it's not grounded in the scientific consensus on Economics. It discounts the value of saving capital, and risking it on a venture, that the investor provides. It assumes wage earners do not benefit from profit-motivated investments, unless they share in the profits of the enterprise they are employed in, which is totally contradicted by basic economic theory, and a mountain of evidence of the last two hundred years. >>You can't honestly say that the Reagan era led to increases in regulation? The Reagan era experienced a quantifiable increase in regulations: https://regulatorystudies.columbian.gwu.edu/reg-stats https://regulatorystudies.columbian.gwu.edu/reg-stats One of the most far-reaching healthcare regulations was enacted during the Reagan era: https://www.athenahealth.com/knowledge-hub/practice-management/expert-forum-rise-and-rise-healthcare-administrator https://www.athenahealth.com/knowledge-hub/practice-manageme... >>Supporters say the growing number of administrators is needed to keep pace with the drastic changes in healthcare delivery during that timeframe, particularly change driven by technology and by ever-more-complex regulations. (To cite just a few industry-disrupting regulations, consider the Prospective Payment System of 1983 [1]; the Health Insurance Portability & Accountability Act of 1996 [2]; and the Health Information Technology for Economic and Clinical Act of 2009. [3]) Beyond federal regulations, state and local regulations increased as well. The land-use study I linked to earlier explains how much land-use restrictions, enacted at the local government level, have increased since 1960, and how much this has contributed to income inequality and productivity growth stagnation. Those who benefit from centralized government control over society, e.g. the public sector unions and a fully unionized mainstream media, have completely taken over the narrative, and have convinced the masses that what the US experienced since 1960 was a move toward libertarianism.. It's an outrageous piece of misinformation/swindling-of-the-public. >>Your other comment about about cooperatives and labour rights was just the perfect market fallacy and completely a historical, respectively, so doesn't merit further analysis. Pure Dunning-Kruger over-confidence. [1] https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-payment/prospmedicarefeesvcpmtgen https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-paymen... [2] https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/laws-regulations/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/laws-reg... [3] https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/special-topics/hitech-act-enforcement-interim-final-rule/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/special-topics/h...