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Besides running the latest and greatest MS Office and Photoshop (which is entirely out of the hands of Linux developers) what can't you do? You can browse the m

Besides running the latest and greatest MS Office and Photoshop (which is entirely out of the hands of Linux developers) what can't you do? You can browse the modern web, do office and productivity tasks, develop, game, watch a movie etc. Most of people's complaints with Linux are things entirely controlled by 3rd parties like specific software and DRM for crap like Blu-rays and 4K Netflix. Modern DEs like KDE and GNOME are extremely usable and functional.

TobyTheDog123 5y ago
You make a lot of points surrounding how it's not up to Linux developers. Yeah, it's unfair, but as a user, I don't care at all whose fault it is. I don't care if Linux developers can't do something about it. If I can't do something using an OS, I'll switch to a different one. Not all of the reasons OSX still wins out on UIX are based on design/dev/talent, but rather partnerships, and adoption/popularity.
throwaway284534 5y ago
In my opinion as a Linux and Mac user, a lack of consistent user experience. And I’m not talking about raw functionality, but the character and demeanor of a Linux computer. Here’s a short laundry list of personal gripes: I don’t know why HiDPI support is still so flakey, especially so with multi-monitor setups. Sometimes apps just work, and other times the UI is comically small or oversized. The only *nix adjacent OS I’ve ever seen address this ChromeOS and MacOS. Sleeping, hibernation, deep snoozing or whatever the term is — I can’t trust a single Linux distro to not drain a laptop battery dry while the lid is closed. I’ve tried all the tricks and there’s always a catch, usually me opening the laptop to a kernel panic, ironically with 1% battery left and the processor underclocked to Celeron speeds. Lastly and most certainly not least, the trackpad support. “Synaptics” is a synonym for unpleasant, bumbling, and janky. Granted, Windows laptops usually don’t do much better, but these clueless drivers make large trackpads basically unusable. True palm rejection seems to remain illusive, partially fixed with like dead zones, keypress timeouts, and other bandaids. And please don’t bring up Bill Harding. He’s doing his best, but the fact is that one single person carrying this responsibility speaks volumes for how much the community values this experience. And yes, I’m aware that these things don’t just happen. I’m just saying what’s wrong. I can only send so many pull requests before giving up and buying a MacBook. Edit:Two more things. Distros need to pick some better branding. Names like Ubuntu, Pop_OS, Elementary… It’s impossible for regular people to understand these things. And get rid of Tux on the boot screen. A penguin with a gut is unpleasant to look at and makes the whole OS seem like a niche interest for computer nerd tropes of the 90s.
- goosedragons 5y ago
  Is Macintosh really a better name than Elementary, Ubuntu or Fedora? And what big distro has Tux anywhere still? If you do a bit of research you can get a Linux laptop with working sleep and a good trackpad or just buy one from an OEM like System76 if you can't be bothered. You wouldn't expect a good macOS experience on a random $600 HP laptop so why do you expect that from Linux? The fact that so much DOES work is impressive.
  - throwaway284534 5y ago
    Respectfully, I believe we have different standards of a “good trackpad.” You’re absolutely right that a premium price would command a better experience. I’m just not seeing it. System76 is selling a rebranded Clevo shell with all the issues I expressed above, with all models starting around the $1,500 price range. The closest thing to a Mac experience on Linux I’ve experienced was a Chromebook Pixel running a chroot, and even that has its own limitations.
  - mbreese 5y ago
    > You wouldn't expect a good macOS experience on a random $600 HP laptop so why do you expect that from Linux? Because we are lead to believe that Linux will run on anything. And if it doesn’t, then because it’s open source we can just add support ourselves. One of the main avenues for Linux adoption is predicated on the notion that you can install it on hardware you already own. But those two notions are wildly unrealistic. Mac provides an outstanding user experience because of the coupling of software and hardware. It’s a lot easier to support a select handful of hardware drivers. And because of that, the system tends to work better as a whole (quality trumps quantity). “Doing a bit of research” to find a compatible Linux laptop is not something just anyone can do. But anyone can walk into an Apple store (or buy online) and be guaranteed to walk out with a working Mac. The number of voices working for a “Linux desktop” is staggering and no one has a unifying vision. It has been this way for decades. That’s okay. Linux doesn’t need to “win” the desktop. It just has to be useful for those who decide that they are more productive (or just enjoy) using Linux over something else. I’d even argue that the most successful user-facing Linux projects were done by a group completely outside of the traditional Linux desktop world: Android and ChromeOS. In both cases, they were driven by a single entity (Google) where they could be opinionated as to what to keep and how things should be designed.
technobabbler 5y ago
IMHO, as a user first and dev second, "things entirely controlled by 3rd parties" aren't a bug, they're a feature. That means someone else gets to jump through the hoops to make it work, not me. The vast majority of useful & fun things on a computer are made by corporate 3rd parties, not GNU & Linux volunteers. Whether it's Netflix, games, Office/Photoshop, obscure drivers, whatever... I can just run an app and expect it to work, and if it doesn't, it's not my problem. I'll wait a while and someone else will fix it. I don't have to tweak obscure config files or apply patches or sideload package manager repos. MacOS, and to a much lesser extent, Windows, mostly stay out of the way and and let my apps and sites take center stage. Linux fails that basic test most of the time, favoring purity of ideology over basic user needs. When I have to jump through hoops to get some trivial device working or an app that takes 3 seconds to install on any other OS, that doesn't say to me "this is a great operating system, I can write my own hack to fix this", it says to me "this still isn't ready, two decades later". I use Linux at work all the time and it's a great workhorse, but at home, I don't want an operating system whose primary selling point is that it requires even more of my time.
- prmoustache 5y ago
  "Whether it's Netflix, games, Office/Photoshop, obscure drivers, whatever... I can just run an app and expect it to work, and if it doesn't, it's not my problem. I'll wait a while and someone else will fix it. I don't have to tweak obscure config files or apply patches or sideload package manager repos." I am not sure what you mean. I have been a linux user for the last 25years and I haven't had to apply any patch manually for the last 15 at the very least, nor looking for obscure drivers. A config file is the same as an option/settings menu, with the advantage that it is usually much better documented. Nobody told you that you can watch netflix on Linux as well as running games, use office and powerful photo editing apps as well?
  - awilfox 5y ago
    > I haven't had to apply any patch manually for the last 15 at the very least You're very lucky. I've had to apply patches manually for the majority of my Linux experience, to the point where I can literally recite you the package patch contribution instructions for Fedora, Gentoo, Debian, and Arch from memory.
Nextgrid 5y ago
> what can't you do? Latest example: I can't install a proprietary driver for certain hardware. The problem isn't just the fact that there isn't a driver available, it's that the infrastructure (ABI or API) to make such a driver is not there for ideological reasons. Software freedom should also be the freedom to decide whether I'd like to give up said freedom if needed.
- goosedragons 5y ago
  You can install proprietary drivers for loads of shit. There just needs to be a driver. People do literally all the time for Nvidia cards, WiFi cards and the occasional printer or other thing. Most distros don't force Libre down you're throat. It's no different on Mac or Windows. You can't slap a 3090 into a Mac Pro and expect macOS to do anything with it because there's no drivers nor can you do anything with an Asterisk PBX card on Windows.
awilfox 5y ago
I can do office and productivity tasks, but not in a way that interops with the tools that others use. It's interesting because Pages can spit out a .docx that Word doesn't mangle too badly, but LibreOffice still can't. I still haven't seen an answer to my use of AirPlay, either. Apparently Chrome can do this to a Chromecast, but… If I'm already giving my data to a horrible monopolistic company, I'd rather give it to the one that at least pretends to care about user privacy as a feature (Apple), rather than considering user privacy a bug (Google). KDE has a lot of little nits, too, and it wore on me. Some of the ones I can think of are: * When KWin crashed, the title bar font went from 12pt to 18pt. I could not fix this unless I ran some specific dbus command in Konsole and then immediately ran `kwin_x11 --replace` afterwards. * Kickoff doesn't let you click "Applications" to go back to the beginning. I suggested it twice and even tried to implement it myself but they have layered everything so deep in QML I was lost. Apparently, they have redesigned the launcher again in 5.21, which released after I was gone, and now it looks like a bad copy of Windows 10 instead of being somewhat decent. Fabulous! * KRunner took about four seconds to respond to input, even on a 16 CPU (Talos II) system. There are plenty of things I loved about KDE too: Kate is amazing, Konsole is a fantastic terminal emulator, and I still use Tellico to this day – I even contributed the Homebrew formula so others can enjoy it on Mac OS. But the experience of using it as a full DE was just not all there for me.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > It's interesting because Pages can spit out a .docx that Word doesn't mangle too badly, but LibreOffice still can't While i haven't had any issues with LibreOffice created or edited .docx, last week i discovered Pages tries to force you to use their proprietary format ( which of course nobody supports). If you open a .docx with Pages, make an edit and save it, it wants to save in .pages. You have to export it to .docx. That's the kind of user hostile bullshit that rarely makes it to Linux-first software, and when it does ( e.g. GNOME disallowing desktop icons or snaps auto-updating) there are alternatives. If Apple don't want you to do something, you're out of luck. Best case scenario someone has made a (usually paid) app that implements a workaround (like Karabiner for basic key combination remappings).
  - 5y ago

TobyTheDog123 5y ago

You make a lot of points surrounding how it's not up to Linux developers. Yeah, it's unfair, but as a user, I don't care at all whose fault it is. I don't care if Linux developers can't do something about it. If I can't do something using an OS, I'll switch to a different one. Not all of the reasons OSX still wins out on UIX are based on design/dev/talent, but rather partnerships, and adoption/popularity.

throwaway284534 5y ago

In my opinion as a Linux and Mac user, a lack of consistent user experience. And I’m not talking about raw functionality, but the character and demeanor of a Linux computer. Here’s a short laundry list of personal gripes: I don’t know why HiDPI support is still so flakey, especially so with multi-monitor setups. Sometimes apps just work, and other times the UI is comically small or oversized. The only *nix adjacent OS I’ve ever seen address this ChromeOS and MacOS. Sleeping, hibernation, deep snoozing or whatever the term is — I can’t trust a single Linux distro to not drain a laptop battery dry while the lid is closed. I’ve tried all the tricks and there’s always a catch, usually me opening the laptop to a kernel panic, ironically with 1% battery left and the processor underclocked to Celeron speeds. Lastly and most certainly not least, the trackpad support. “Synaptics” is a synonym for unpleasant, bumbling, and janky. Granted, Windows laptops usually don’t do much better, but these clueless drivers make large trackpads basically unusable. True palm rejection seems to remain illusive, partially fixed with like dead zones, keypress timeouts, and other bandaids. And please don’t bring up Bill Harding. He’s doing his best, but the fact is that one single person carrying this responsibility speaks volumes for how much the community values this experience. And yes, I’m aware that these things don’t just happen. I’m just saying what’s wrong. I can only send so many pull requests before giving up and buying a MacBook. Edit:Two more things. Distros need to pick some better branding. Names like Ubuntu, Pop_OS, Elementary… It’s impossible for regular people to understand these things. And get rid of Tux on the boot screen. A penguin with a gut is unpleasant to look at and makes the whole OS seem like a niche interest for computer nerd tropes of the 90s.

goosedragons 5y ago
Is Macintosh really a better name than Elementary, Ubuntu or Fedora? And what big distro has Tux anywhere still? If you do a bit of research you can get a Linux laptop with working sleep and a good trackpad or just buy one from an OEM like System76 if you can't be bothered. You wouldn't expect a good macOS experience on a random $600 HP laptop so why do you expect that from Linux? The fact that so much DOES work is impressive.
- throwaway284534 5y ago
  Respectfully, I believe we have different standards of a “good trackpad.” You’re absolutely right that a premium price would command a better experience. I’m just not seeing it. System76 is selling a rebranded Clevo shell with all the issues I expressed above, with all models starting around the $1,500 price range. The closest thing to a Mac experience on Linux I’ve experienced was a Chromebook Pixel running a chroot, and even that has its own limitations.
- mbreese 5y ago
  > You wouldn't expect a good macOS experience on a random $600 HP laptop so why do you expect that from Linux? Because we are lead to believe that Linux will run on anything. And if it doesn’t, then because it’s open source we can just add support ourselves. One of the main avenues for Linux adoption is predicated on the notion that you can install it on hardware you already own. But those two notions are wildly unrealistic. Mac provides an outstanding user experience because of the coupling of software and hardware. It’s a lot easier to support a select handful of hardware drivers. And because of that, the system tends to work better as a whole (quality trumps quantity). “Doing a bit of research” to find a compatible Linux laptop is not something just anyone can do. But anyone can walk into an Apple store (or buy online) and be guaranteed to walk out with a working Mac. The number of voices working for a “Linux desktop” is staggering and no one has a unifying vision. It has been this way for decades. That’s okay. Linux doesn’t need to “win” the desktop. It just has to be useful for those who decide that they are more productive (or just enjoy) using Linux over something else. I’d even argue that the most successful user-facing Linux projects were done by a group completely outside of the traditional Linux desktop world: Android and ChromeOS. In both cases, they were driven by a single entity (Google) where they could be opinionated as to what to keep and how things should be designed.

technobabbler 5y ago

IMHO, as a user first and dev second, "things entirely controlled by 3rd parties" aren't a bug, they're a feature. That means someone else gets to jump through the hoops to make it work, not me. The vast majority of useful & fun things on a computer are made by corporate 3rd parties, not GNU & Linux volunteers. Whether it's Netflix, games, Office/Photoshop, obscure drivers, whatever... I can just run an app and expect it to work, and if it doesn't, it's not my problem. I'll wait a while and someone else will fix it. I don't have to tweak obscure config files or apply patches or sideload package manager repos. MacOS, and to a much lesser extent, Windows, mostly stay out of the way and and let my apps and sites take center stage. Linux fails that basic test most of the time, favoring purity of ideology over basic user needs. When I have to jump through hoops to get some trivial device working or an app that takes 3 seconds to install on any other OS, that doesn't say to me "this is a great operating system, I can write my own hack to fix this", it says to me "this still isn't ready, two decades later". I use Linux at work all the time and it's a great workhorse, but at home, I don't want an operating system whose primary selling point is that it requires even more of my time.

prmoustache 5y ago
"Whether it's Netflix, games, Office/Photoshop, obscure drivers, whatever... I can just run an app and expect it to work, and if it doesn't, it's not my problem. I'll wait a while and someone else will fix it. I don't have to tweak obscure config files or apply patches or sideload package manager repos." I am not sure what you mean. I have been a linux user for the last 25years and I haven't had to apply any patch manually for the last 15 at the very least, nor looking for obscure drivers. A config file is the same as an option/settings menu, with the advantage that it is usually much better documented. Nobody told you that you can watch netflix on Linux as well as running games, use office and powerful photo editing apps as well?
- awilfox 5y ago
  > I haven't had to apply any patch manually for the last 15 at the very least You're very lucky. I've had to apply patches manually for the majority of my Linux experience, to the point where I can literally recite you the package patch contribution instructions for Fedora, Gentoo, Debian, and Arch from memory.

Nextgrid 5y ago

> what can't you do? Latest example: I can't install a proprietary driver for certain hardware. The problem isn't just the fact that there isn't a driver available, it's that the infrastructure (ABI or API) to make such a driver is not there for ideological reasons. Software freedom should also be the freedom to decide whether I'd like to give up said freedom if needed.

goosedragons 5y ago
You can install proprietary drivers for loads of shit. There just needs to be a driver. People do literally all the time for Nvidia cards, WiFi cards and the occasional printer or other thing. Most distros don't force Libre down you're throat. It's no different on Mac or Windows. You can't slap a 3090 into a Mac Pro and expect macOS to do anything with it because there's no drivers nor can you do anything with an Asterisk PBX card on Windows.

awilfox 5y ago

I can do office and productivity tasks, but not in a way that interops with the tools that others use. It's interesting because Pages can spit out a .docx that Word doesn't mangle too badly, but LibreOffice still can't. I still haven't seen an answer to my use of AirPlay, either. Apparently Chrome can do this to a Chromecast, but… If I'm already giving my data to a horrible monopolistic company, I'd rather give it to the one that at least pretends to care about user privacy as a feature (Apple), rather than considering user privacy a bug (Google). KDE has a lot of little nits, too, and it wore on me. Some of the ones I can think of are: * When KWin crashed, the title bar font went from 12pt to 18pt. I could not fix this unless I ran some specific dbus command in Konsole and then immediately ran `kwin_x11 --replace` afterwards. * Kickoff doesn't let you click "Applications" to go back to the beginning. I suggested it twice and even tried to implement it myself but they have layered everything so deep in QML I was lost. Apparently, they have redesigned the launcher again in 5.21, which released after I was gone, and now it looks like a bad copy of Windows 10 instead of being somewhat decent. Fabulous! * KRunner took about four seconds to respond to input, even on a 16 CPU (Talos II) system. There are plenty of things I loved about KDE too: Kate is amazing, Konsole is a fantastic terminal emulator, and I still use Tellico to this day – I even contributed the Homebrew formula so others can enjoy it on Mac OS. But the experience of using it as a full DE was just not all there for me.

sofixa 5y ago
> It's interesting because Pages can spit out a .docx that Word doesn't mangle too badly, but LibreOffice still can't While i haven't had any issues with LibreOffice created or edited .docx, last week i discovered Pages tries to force you to use their proprietary format ( which of course nobody supports). If you open a .docx with Pages, make an edit and save it, it wants to save in .pages. You have to export it to .docx. That's the kind of user hostile bullshit that rarely makes it to Linux-first software, and when it does ( e.g. GNOME disallowing desktop icons or snaps auto-updating) there are alternatives. If Apple don't want you to do something, you're out of luck. Best case scenario someone has made a (usually paid) app that implements a workaround (like Karabiner for basic key combination remappings).
- 5y ago