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Who cares what people in the industry think affordable housing should look like. If it were up to them we would be living in storage units. Make it illegal for

Who cares what people in the industry think affordable housing should look like. If it were up to them we would be living in storage units. Make it illegal for corporations to own single/dual family residential property. Boom. Done. End the corporate landlord. Residential property owners don't go scooping up empty factories and strip malls when the market is down.

genewitch 5y ago
This, on it's face, seems like the proper way to deal with it, but what about 40 somethings that have actually struggled to buy and renovate multiple properties because "passive income, or whatever" - in order to shield themselves eventually someone is going to recommend an LLC or incorp, and handing the responsibilities of the day to day off to another, third party entity for management. Where do you draw the line? I think landlords are an archaic remnant of the past that refuses to let go. I haven't self-resolved my thoughts on whether or not it's ethical to have property you don't, yourself use. In my opinion, it's complex, ethically. Ideally we wouldn't need landlords or apartments or anything (hey 37% of the workforce in the US could "easily" work remotely! what about th) - but since they exist, I'm in agreement. "holding land" should be frowned upon.
- zelon88 5y ago
  If the case is as you describe then get the assets back in an individual person's name and just hire a management company. The only reason you would want to hide behind an LLC is so you can avoid liability as a landlord. That is the source of so many horror stories. Dangerous, disgusting, pathetic horror stories.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  No third party management. Housing is something I am perfectly OK with requiring a landlord to be personally responsible for, and that means you can't shunt inefficiencies onto some faceless management corporations who exist as a buffer between landlords and the human beings. One perverse incentive in this market is the ability to distance yourself from the human consequences of profit based decisions. If you have to deal with it personally, and your community knows your reputation, the renter/landlord dynamic becomes a lot more civil and personal. Banks shouldn't own houses. People should.
- genocidicbunny 5y ago
  Generally, when someone forms a LLC for managing a property, they don't pass the ownership of the property to the LLC. The LLC manages the day-to-day of dealing with tenants, maintenance, communications. But ultimately the individual person still owns the property. I think there are ways we can draw the line. We can accept that some form of property ownership is fine, even if it means that one person owns multiple properties. For example, an older couple renting out their old home after they downsized. But there needs to be a progressive tax on additional properties. Something like that by the time you own 10 properties, each additional property costs you more in taxes annually than it can ever bring in (think 500k annual tax on a property valued at 500k.) Corporate property ownership we can treat two ways -- completely eliminate it, or similarly progressively tax it, but at a much harsher rate. Like, each additional property requires 2x the taxation of the previous one. And make any attempts to circumvent this very criminal and strict liability -- like 25y/life for the executive and board levels, and no arguing that it was some underling that did it.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    There's a whole industry around advising people to structure their holdings into LLCs, so I'm not sure where you are getting "generally" from. For example: https://www.avail.co/education/articles/should-you-create-an-llc-for-your-rental-property https://www.avail.co/education/articles/should-you-create-an...
robbedpeter 5y ago
Couple that with a rigorous system preventing slumlord abuses, eliminate hoas, federally standardized minimum rental rights that give both landlords and renters recourse and accountability, and a unicorn. The gotcha games allowed by local and state laws (or hoas) in many places are just bonkers.
aspenmayer 5y ago
I agree with you. I was merely curious whether the industry insiders also saw that same writing on the wall, and didn’t want to dismiss their concerns out of hand. It’s possible that they may have insight into the concerns of current landlords. Ideally there would be a federal moratorium on new land-lording, and all current landlords would have to setup an estate plan to transition ownership to heirs for use as a primary residence if they did not already own one, and the excess could be sold at auction to those who don’t already own a primary residence, or to those who are trading up or down to another house. Not sure if that’s a great way to go about it, but it could work.
- CapricornNoble 5y ago
  >>>all current landlords would have to setup an estate plan to transition ownership to heirs for use as a primary residence if they did not already own one, and the excess could be sold at auction to those who don’t already own a primary residence, or to those who are trading up or down to another house. My mother spent 30+ years paying off her mortgage, busting her ass to ensure that I would inherit her property free-and-clear. I'm just beginning to setup the place with a property management company, and already my projections indicate it is the #2 source of income and wealth in our family over the next 10 years (my income is #1, wife's income a VERY distant #3). Property ownership, and leveraging assets to acquire more assets, isn't used exclusively by the already-wealthy 1%. It's also used by middle-class minorities, living well within their means, to climb the ladder out of the working class and into the capitalist class. I'm finally starting to see a light at the end of the wage-slavery tunnel. My primary residence is outside the US, and I have no intention or expectation that I would ever penalize my children by forcing them to reside in the crumbling, socially-fractured dystopian hellhole of America. I would absolutely fly MYSELF back to the States, perhaps even augmented with personally-hired SE Asian "security contractors" (far more affordable than US veterans) to defend my family's assets with lethal force if someone tried to implement this insanity. "Do-gooders" and their unintended consequences really grind my gears.
  - TomVDB 5y ago
    You agree that the US is a hellhole for many people, but you don’t seem to realize that you’re part of the problem. (Note that I’m part of the problem too, by renting out our previous house so that my kid may eventually be able to live close to us, but at least I’m not a hypocrite, knowingly or not, about it.)

genewitch 5y ago

This, on it's face, seems like the proper way to deal with it, but what about 40 somethings that have actually struggled to buy and renovate multiple properties because "passive income, or whatever" - in order to shield themselves eventually someone is going to recommend an LLC or incorp, and handing the responsibilities of the day to day off to another, third party entity for management. Where do you draw the line? I think landlords are an archaic remnant of the past that refuses to let go. I haven't self-resolved my thoughts on whether or not it's ethical to have property you don't, yourself use. In my opinion, it's complex, ethically. Ideally we wouldn't need landlords or apartments or anything (hey 37% of the workforce in the US could "easily" work remotely! what about th) - but since they exist, I'm in agreement. "holding land" should be frowned upon.

zelon88 5y ago
If the case is as you describe then get the assets back in an individual person's name and just hire a management company. The only reason you would want to hide behind an LLC is so you can avoid liability as a landlord. That is the source of so many horror stories. Dangerous, disgusting, pathetic horror stories.
robbedpeter 5y ago
No third party management. Housing is something I am perfectly OK with requiring a landlord to be personally responsible for, and that means you can't shunt inefficiencies onto some faceless management corporations who exist as a buffer between landlords and the human beings. One perverse incentive in this market is the ability to distance yourself from the human consequences of profit based decisions. If you have to deal with it personally, and your community knows your reputation, the renter/landlord dynamic becomes a lot more civil and personal. Banks shouldn't own houses. People should.
genocidicbunny 5y ago
Generally, when someone forms a LLC for managing a property, they don't pass the ownership of the property to the LLC. The LLC manages the day-to-day of dealing with tenants, maintenance, communications. But ultimately the individual person still owns the property. I think there are ways we can draw the line. We can accept that some form of property ownership is fine, even if it means that one person owns multiple properties. For example, an older couple renting out their old home after they downsized. But there needs to be a progressive tax on additional properties. Something like that by the time you own 10 properties, each additional property costs you more in taxes annually than it can ever bring in (think 500k annual tax on a property valued at 500k.) Corporate property ownership we can treat two ways -- completely eliminate it, or similarly progressively tax it, but at a much harsher rate. Like, each additional property requires 2x the taxation of the previous one. And make any attempts to circumvent this very criminal and strict liability -- like 25y/life for the executive and board levels, and no arguing that it was some underling that did it.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  There's a whole industry around advising people to structure their holdings into LLCs, so I'm not sure where you are getting "generally" from. For example: https://www.avail.co/education/articles/should-you-create-an-llc-for-your-rental-property https://www.avail.co/education/articles/should-you-create-an...

robbedpeter 5y ago

Couple that with a rigorous system preventing slumlord abuses, eliminate hoas, federally standardized minimum rental rights that give both landlords and renters recourse and accountability, and a unicorn. The gotcha games allowed by local and state laws (or hoas) in many places are just bonkers.

aspenmayer 5y ago

I agree with you. I was merely curious whether the industry insiders also saw that same writing on the wall, and didn’t want to dismiss their concerns out of hand. It’s possible that they may have insight into the concerns of current landlords. Ideally there would be a federal moratorium on new land-lording, and all current landlords would have to setup an estate plan to transition ownership to heirs for use as a primary residence if they did not already own one, and the excess could be sold at auction to those who don’t already own a primary residence, or to those who are trading up or down to another house. Not sure if that’s a great way to go about it, but it could work.

CapricornNoble 5y ago
>>>all current landlords would have to setup an estate plan to transition ownership to heirs for use as a primary residence if they did not already own one, and the excess could be sold at auction to those who don’t already own a primary residence, or to those who are trading up or down to another house. My mother spent 30+ years paying off her mortgage, busting her ass to ensure that I would inherit her property free-and-clear. I'm just beginning to setup the place with a property management company, and already my projections indicate it is the #2 source of income and wealth in our family over the next 10 years (my income is #1, wife's income a VERY distant #3). Property ownership, and leveraging assets to acquire more assets, isn't used exclusively by the already-wealthy 1%. It's also used by middle-class minorities, living well within their means, to climb the ladder out of the working class and into the capitalist class. I'm finally starting to see a light at the end of the wage-slavery tunnel. My primary residence is outside the US, and I have no intention or expectation that I would ever penalize my children by forcing them to reside in the crumbling, socially-fractured dystopian hellhole of America. I would absolutely fly MYSELF back to the States, perhaps even augmented with personally-hired SE Asian "security contractors" (far more affordable than US veterans) to defend my family's assets with lethal force if someone tried to implement this insanity. "Do-gooders" and their unintended consequences really grind my gears.
- TomVDB 5y ago
  You agree that the US is a hellhole for many people, but you don’t seem to realize that you’re part of the problem. (Note that I’m part of the problem too, by renting out our previous house so that my kid may eventually be able to live close to us, but at least I’m not a hypocrite, knowingly or not, about it.)