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> Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Okay, yes. In a way. But they're taking responsibility to try to get other people to do something for them. You're rig

by lhnz 15y ago

> Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Okay, yes. In a way. But they're taking responsibility to try to get other people to do something for them. You're right, I do have an individualistic perspective on this. I don't think it works well. The only control they will get over the situation will be the control they're given by the government/big industry. > But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'll take the bait. What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes?

nhaehnle 15y ago
What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? First of all, I think we have to make sure we understand each other what the question is here. Most of the griefs of the protestors, as far as I understand them, can almost by definition only be solved by a government solution. (Assuming you accept their claim that they are not protesting for their individual well-being, but are instead protesting against systemic issues in society.) Bank regulation comes to mind - obviously, banks cannot be regulated by individuals. The same thing applies to macroeconomic problems such as mass unemployment. Once you recognize that a given problem can only be resolved by government changing its behavior, there remains the question of how you proceed. Do you simply shout about it on the street, or are you trying to do more? It is this "more" that I was talking about, which usually happens in movements like this. Of course I cannot give you concrete examples since I am not involved in the whole Occupy Wall Street thing, and outside observers can only see them after the fact, if they have been successful. It usually starts with people genuinely interested in learning. Groups form where people teach each other and become creative. People spend a lot of time thinking about how to fix the problems, and trying to reach out to those who are already in a position to implement their plans. Some may go on trying to run for office themselves. And so on. This is often unsuccessful for obvious reasons - changing the behavior of government is extremely difficult. But it's not unsuccessful for a lack of trying. More often, the greatest problem is the fact that the people involved are simply inexperienced in dealing with those type of power structures, and therefore fail to acquire enough social influence to really effect a change.
nhaehnle 15y ago
What I wrote in the sibling reply still stands, but I should probably emphasize that how we interpret your question is really, really important. In particular, you wrote (emphasis mine): > What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? There are two ways to read that "their": A) Each person is protesting for a solution to his or her individual woes. B) They are protesting for a solution to the woes of all of them. The distinction is important because yes, if all you're protesting for is your own personal well-being, then I would agree that you should get off your sorry ass and just improve yourself. However, if you are genuinely concerned about the well-being of society as a whole, things are suddenly very different. I suspect that you are implicitly working off an A-type interpretation, while I am working off a B-type interpretation. That's a likely source of misunderstanding.

by lhnz 15y ago

nhaehnle 15y ago

What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? First of all, I think we have to make sure we understand each other what the question is here. Most of the griefs of the protestors, as far as I understand them, can almost by definition only be solved by a government solution. (Assuming you accept their claim that they are not protesting for their individual well-being, but are instead protesting against systemic issues in society.) Bank regulation comes to mind - obviously, banks cannot be regulated by individuals. The same thing applies to macroeconomic problems such as mass unemployment. Once you recognize that a given problem can only be resolved by government changing its behavior, there remains the question of how you proceed. Do you simply shout about it on the street, or are you trying to do more? It is this "more" that I was talking about, which usually happens in movements like this. Of course I cannot give you concrete examples since I am not involved in the whole Occupy Wall Street thing, and outside observers can only see them after the fact, if they have been successful. It usually starts with people genuinely interested in learning. Groups form where people teach each other and become creative. People spend a lot of time thinking about how to fix the problems, and trying to reach out to those who are already in a position to implement their plans. Some may go on trying to run for office themselves. And so on. This is often unsuccessful for obvious reasons - changing the behavior of government is extremely difficult. But it's not unsuccessful for a lack of trying. More often, the greatest problem is the fact that the people involved are simply inexperienced in dealing with those type of power structures, and therefore fail to acquire enough social influence to really effect a change.

nhaehnle 15y ago

What I wrote in the sibling reply still stands, but I should probably emphasize that how we interpret your question is really, really important. In particular, you wrote (emphasis mine): > What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? There are two ways to read that "their": A) Each person is protesting for a solution to his or her individual woes. B) They are protesting for a solution to the woes of all of them. The distinction is important because yes, if all you're protesting for is your own personal well-being, then I would agree that you should get off your sorry ass and just improve yourself. However, if you are genuinely concerned about the well-being of society as a whole, things are suddenly very different. I suspect that you are implicitly working off an A-type interpretation, while I am working off a B-type interpretation. That's a likely source of misunderstanding.