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An evolutionary psychologist might argue something like that. Another way to put it, is that while the individual might act selflessly with pure and honest emp

An evolutionary psychologist might argue something like that. Another way to put it, is that while the individual might act selflessly with pure and honest empathy, with no conscious expectation of something in return, this kind of behavior wouldn't have survived in our gene pool if there wasn't some evolutionary advantage to behaving that way. So, the onlookers would really have to specify whether they're talking about the conscious being who is the good Samaritan or if they're talking about the unconscious entity that is the generic big brained ape that has deeply embedded survival and reproductive instincts that drive their conscious behaviors and desires outside of their control. I can simultaneously say that the person was honestly just being good while acknowledging that the biological entity may have achieved some kind of advantage by signalling their virtue. Alternatively, I could also say that the good Samaritan is actually acting in a way that is a detriment to his survival, and only happens because of a bug in his generic and psychological programming or an old beneficial feature that is no longer good for a new environment and will eventually be removed via natural selection.

dahfizz 5y ago
It's not self evident that virtue _signals_ are evolutionarily advantageous. Actually being virtuous is what provides a benefit to your society / tribe / species.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Once a behavior has been socially locked in as "virtuous", then doesn't it create an incentive for individuals to signal that virtue?
  - Scarblac 5y ago
    Not necessarily, no. Why would it?
    - lossolo 5y ago
      Maybe because it's perceived as noble thing to do so people would signal that to others as benefit to themselves - to get higher status in a group.
      - leaflets2 5y ago
        Maybe depends on how dumb the others are -- the easier to fool, the more effective virtue signaling would be? And, like @Scarblac wrote, sometimes it's a bad idea -- if the others see through it?
Matumio 5y ago
But this is humans we are taking about. Humans have evolved genetically to be maximally flexible in behaviour. Our psychology is learned from role models and repurposed by our cultural institutions[1]. So here we are, discussing a story passed down over generations, to guide our moral values. This is culture, not biology. This particular story teaches us that we should judge people by their individual intentions. Western cultures tend to judge that way[1]. Most other human cultures will ignore intentions and judge by outcome. They will also punish a whole family or clan, not an individual (except within their own clan or family). So, according to our culture, we should judge people by their intentions. What about companies? Given that a company has many legal rights of a person, maybe we should judge it like a person - by the goodness of its intentions? Or maybe we can only judge individuals. But then why do so many individuals justify what they do with the needs of a company? Even questions about death, it seems. [1] See Henrich's books: "The Secret of Our Success" and "The WEIRDest People"
- BowBun 5y ago
  The fact that a company has the legal rights of a person is a mockery of human rights in my opinion, and Citizens United a huge mistake. That aside, I don't think you can judge the intent of a company's actions. Let's ignore the small family business for now, but if you look at a big corp, decision making is a distributed responsibility with individuals checking off their part as it passes through their department. There is no single person you can ask to determine intent. The intent of the many people making the decision could be contradictory, or someone like the CEO could be acting in bad faith and misleading his employees to approve a decision that benefits the CEO and no one else. We see this more frequently with crime or negative actions, where sometimes the CEO is the scapegoat but we conveniently forget the various VPs and individuals that contributed to the decision. My point is that companies shirk responsibility by obfuscating individual responsibility, and I think that would apply the same way to judging a company's intent. Lastly, judging implies a verdict, and you can't put a company behind bars. Yet companies are more than capable of committing atrocious crimes the likes of which rival war crimes (child labor/slavery in foreign countries, polluting waterways/airways and poisoning entire cities, running propaganda campaigns against the interest of public health, etc.) I find it ridiculous that a company can enjoy our rights but shirk our duties and accountability.
magpi3 5y ago
> Alternatively, I could also say that the good Samaritan is actually acting in a way that is a detriment to his survival, and only happens because of a bug in his generic and psychological programming or an old beneficial feature that is no longer good for a new environment and will eventually be removed via natural selection. Evolution does not "work" on behalf of individuals. It works on behalf of species. So if a member of a species is willing to sacrifice himself or take risks for the whole, that is an evolutionary feature not a bug. If a species were truly focused on the individual, I imagine it would quickly die out, which, let's face it, seems like a threat to our species in our modern world when people choose not to have kids because they don't want the responsibilties involved.
nine_k 5y ago
To reap benefits of cooperation, there is no need to signal it. It still helps the species survive and thrive, even if the only organism aware of an act of cooperation is the one providing help.
- watwut 5y ago
  People mimic what they see. Seeing other people be helping makes people more helping. Seeing them being selfish makes one more selfish. That is on of vectors how culture is created.

dahfizz 5y ago

It's not self evident that virtue _signals_ are evolutionarily advantageous. Actually being virtuous is what provides a benefit to your society / tribe / species.

anonporridge 5y ago
Once a behavior has been socially locked in as "virtuous", then doesn't it create an incentive for individuals to signal that virtue?
- Scarblac 5y ago
  Not necessarily, no. Why would it?
  - lossolo 5y ago
    Maybe because it's perceived as noble thing to do so people would signal that to others as benefit to themselves - to get higher status in a group.
    - leaflets2 5y ago
      Maybe depends on how dumb the others are -- the easier to fool, the more effective virtue signaling would be? And, like @Scarblac wrote, sometimes it's a bad idea -- if the others see through it?

Matumio 5y ago

But this is humans we are taking about. Humans have evolved genetically to be maximally flexible in behaviour. Our psychology is learned from role models and repurposed by our cultural institutions[1]. So here we are, discussing a story passed down over generations, to guide our moral values. This is culture, not biology. This particular story teaches us that we should judge people by their individual intentions. Western cultures tend to judge that way[1]. Most other human cultures will ignore intentions and judge by outcome. They will also punish a whole family or clan, not an individual (except within their own clan or family). So, according to our culture, we should judge people by their intentions. What about companies? Given that a company has many legal rights of a person, maybe we should judge it like a person - by the goodness of its intentions? Or maybe we can only judge individuals. But then why do so many individuals justify what they do with the needs of a company? Even questions about death, it seems. [1] See Henrich's books: "The Secret of Our Success" and "The WEIRDest People"

BowBun 5y ago
The fact that a company has the legal rights of a person is a mockery of human rights in my opinion, and Citizens United a huge mistake. That aside, I don't think you can judge the intent of a company's actions. Let's ignore the small family business for now, but if you look at a big corp, decision making is a distributed responsibility with individuals checking off their part as it passes through their department. There is no single person you can ask to determine intent. The intent of the many people making the decision could be contradictory, or someone like the CEO could be acting in bad faith and misleading his employees to approve a decision that benefits the CEO and no one else. We see this more frequently with crime or negative actions, where sometimes the CEO is the scapegoat but we conveniently forget the various VPs and individuals that contributed to the decision. My point is that companies shirk responsibility by obfuscating individual responsibility, and I think that would apply the same way to judging a company's intent. Lastly, judging implies a verdict, and you can't put a company behind bars. Yet companies are more than capable of committing atrocious crimes the likes of which rival war crimes (child labor/slavery in foreign countries, polluting waterways/airways and poisoning entire cities, running propaganda campaigns against the interest of public health, etc.) I find it ridiculous that a company can enjoy our rights but shirk our duties and accountability.

magpi3 5y ago

> Alternatively, I could also say that the good Samaritan is actually acting in a way that is a detriment to his survival, and only happens because of a bug in his generic and psychological programming or an old beneficial feature that is no longer good for a new environment and will eventually be removed via natural selection. Evolution does not "work" on behalf of individuals. It works on behalf of species. So if a member of a species is willing to sacrifice himself or take risks for the whole, that is an evolutionary feature not a bug. If a species were truly focused on the individual, I imagine it would quickly die out, which, let's face it, seems like a threat to our species in our modern world when people choose not to have kids because they don't want the responsibilties involved.

nine_k 5y ago

To reap benefits of cooperation, there is no need to signal it. It still helps the species survive and thrive, even if the only organism aware of an act of cooperation is the one providing help.

watwut 5y ago
People mimic what they see. Seeing other people be helping makes people more helping. Seeing them being selfish makes one more selfish. That is on of vectors how culture is created.