11 ms·
Test Microwave for Radiation Leakage
- aluminum96 5y agoWhat does this chart indicate?
- janci 5y agoI think it tests latency of wifi connection. If wifi can not leak into the oven, microwaves can not leak out.
- jodrellblank 5y agoYou load the web page on your phone, put it in to the microwave and close the door. The microwave should be a Faraday cage preventing microwave radiation getting through. Now the phone/web page cannot contact the internet. The chart stops updating. Unless there's a leak, then the chart continues updating while the phone is in the microwave. Then open the door and look if it could/couldn't keep pinging the server while the door was closed.
- FredPret 5y agoI did this and now my phone has an extra 4gb of RAM
- dankle 5y agoMine has 5G now!
- bitcharmer 5y agoThis doesn't answer GP's question. How does it work? Why does my workstation connected to my router via ethernet cable show wildly varying results? What is the unit of Y axis?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y agoSeconds (judging by the source code), and I assume the variance comes from the time it takes the server to respond + javascript delays. It's interesting to see the significant variation and an almost 100 ms difference between what my browser reports and what the chart reports. (The server responses were pretty consistent).
- olx_designer 5y agoIs this is an IQ test?
- janci 5y agoYes. If you are able to follow instructions you will not turn the oven on with the phone inside.
- smegsicle 5y agounless it's a recent generation iphone w wireless rapid charging
- bgro 5y agoIt says in red at the top to not turn on your microwave. This seems to be testing if WiFi waves can get through the microwave. It’s interesting the browser can get access to this information with no prompts
- qorrect 5y ago> It’s interesting the browser can get access to this information with no prompts Exactly what information is it getting ? What Chrome API is this using ?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Karliss 5y agoAll it does is measures ping. No direct WiFi measurements just the timing of regular network requests.
- larsrc 5y agoIsn't it lovely how we're inundating our homes with radiation at wavelengths that can cook meat? It's as if we _want_ the robot revolution to succeed.
- jodrellblank 5y agoYou mean like infra-red from the Sun when we have homes with windows? (A microwave is ~1 KiloWatt up close, WiFi is ~1Watt and meters away. This is like spreading fear that your house has a warm radiator which is bad because ovens use warmth to cook food).
- colanderman 5y agoThe only adverse effect microwaves have been found to have on humans is due to heating [1]. WiFi transmitters emit less than 1/1000 the power that a microwave oven does. Unless your cell phone starts to make you feel uncomfortably warm, I don't think you have to worry. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave#Effects_on_health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave#Effects_on_health
- tomxor 5y agoNot only is there a massive difference in the power of a microwave oven compared to wifi, but the mechanism through which it heats food is dielectric heating [0] which does not occur in radio signals because they are not rotating fields. This basic information is contained in the first very short paragraph of how a microwave oven works on wikipedia. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_heating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_heating
- NikolaNovak 5y agoI hear these concerns in real life and as per my longer post above, I don't understand the threat model. My oven and stove can also cook meat. It's what they do. What is the actual concern? I feel I have burned myself on ovens and stoves a lot more than I have on microwaves in my life (let alone the risks in popular gas stoves etc). I am genuinely curious what is the delta and differentiating factor making microwaved mystically scary?
- defanor 5y ago> 1. Put phone on 2.4ghz wifi (5GHZ WILL NOT WORK!) Might be nice to expand on "will not work". Wouldn't 5 GHz Wi-Fi failing to connect show that it's even better at blocking, and would easily block 2.45 GHz too? And I'd think that they should block 5 GHz too, since those meshes look quite fine, and they probably try to be extra-safe.
- dhdc 5y ago5GHz actually has worse penetration and stronger attenuation over distance than 2.4GHz. Succesfully blocking 5GHz does not imply the same for 2.4GHz. However I do agree that it's probably still gonna work because the faraday cages on microwaves are always overkill (even the cheap ones).
- mountainboy 5y agoa cheap consumer RF meter detects "high" levels of RF from 5+ feet away, at least on the 4 or 5 random units I've tried. So the faraday cage doesn't seem to be doing its job in full.
- dhdc 5y agoA "high" from a random RF meter doesn't mean anything. Give me numbers in dBm/MHz.
- mountainboy 5y ago
- exmadscientist 5y agoRF leaks can be pretty directional. So simple tests like this phone test or waving a power meter around aren't terribly sensitive. (But pay attention if you get a test failure!) There really isn't any substitute for a proper EMC chamber.
- gruez 5y ago
- nullrouten 5y agoYou would need to take your access point and wave it all around various directions in the space around the microwave. The “leak” could occur in a direction that doesn’t have significant signal. Might be a better test to cook a large bowl of water, while testing your phone (outside the oven) on 2.4ghz … holding it on all sides of the oven to see if any areas degrade the signal. This testing approach isn’t that conclusive.
- dhdc 5y agoA live test would be quite dangerous if the microwave does leak EM.
- gruez 5y ago>This testing approach isn’t that conclusive. Agreed. I just tested with two phones and one phone timed out but the other was able to maintain a connection. That would suggest that my microwave is maybe leaking. However I'm able to use the microwave without any noticeable effects from on 2.4ghz devices.
- dhdc 5y agoActually, this is not as stupid as it seems. I was first baffled by the idea that a website can read the RSSI of the device I'm on, then I realized its probably just measuring the latency by pinging every second.
- noodlesUK 5y agoIdk if OP is the person who wrote this, but on my device the red text about not turning the microwave on is not especially legible. I’d probably make that text a bit bigger and/or brighter. I expect most HN readers will know not to microwave a phone but you’d be surprised what people might do.
- defanor 5y agoIndeed, it's generally not considered legible on any common devices: WCAG suggests to ensure suitable perceived contrast ratios [1], and there are checkers around [2], while this page's #f00 on #36393F is far from meeting those. For the safety's sake, might be nice to also recommend to unplug the microwave oven altogether as the first step. [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-contrast.html https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-cont... [2] https://contrastchecker.com/ https://contrastchecker.com/
- dijonman2 5y agoIn dark mode it’s very legible. I expect most people know not to microwave their phones except maybe children.
- defanor 5y agoI wouldn't count on that: many things that seem straightforward, especially to an adult tech-savvy person if those things are tech-related, are far from that for others. And even tech-savvy people can be (and often are) careless, distracted/preoccupied/unfocused, making mistakes; I think pressing a "start" button automatically upon closing the door is something that can happen easily. Also as a rule, extra guards, safety measures, and/or warnings are good, especially when irreversible damage can happen. Edit: actually there's an example of an unexpected mistake in this thread already, in the comment by hanoz. As mentioned before, listing unplugging as the first step would be useful.
- leaflets2 5y ago> I expect most people know not to microwave their phones I think you're vastly underestimating how little people know. A friendly FYI: seems you're in some kind of a bubble. Personally I didn't learn about don't-microwave-metal (incl phones), until I was about 20 -- and at that time, I had already been studying physics at university for a year, and knew vastly much more than what most people ever will. I wouldn't say I was a child, at that time. Be happy if people in general realize that photons and coronavirus aren't the same thing, although they're both small.
- notorandit 5y agoThis thing is totally insane. Instructions are not clear at all and the risk that someone bakes a phone in a MWO or doesn't any other harmful thing is rather high. Please remove this post.
- dzhiurgis 5y agoSo hard not to automatically press start. But one could also use fridge for this test.
- jbothma 5y agoI don't know, I'm not sure the fridge would give a good indication of the microwave's leakiness.
- 1kurac 5y agoNeither does TCP over WiFi, really.
- powerbroker 5y agoIt might, if someone put their router in the microwave, simultaneously with the phone in the fridge... but at best it would prove that both the microwave and the fridge have leakiness.
- mpreda 5y agoIn most cases, the fridge won't fit.
- verve_rat 5y agoI strongly disagree. If you are idiot enough to microwave your own phone, that's on you. This post is fine, and interesting.
- eyelidlessness 5y agoCalling people idiots for making mistakes is about the most boring thing I can imagine. I agree it shouldn’t be deleted, and that it’s interesting. But everyone flubs it from time to time, even people who like to think they’re above that.
- ganzuul 5y agoI remain in awe that we trust the very cheapest plastic under repeat load and thermal cycling to form a -40dB seal, turning 700W into 70mW. Also, it seems that the outer metal shell of the device forms an active part of the circuit, so if it isn't plugged into a grounded outlet it sits at lethal potential. Then there is beryllium oxide in the thing... I kind of doubt an independent inventor could bring this to market with today's startup climate.
- dhdc 5y agoA faraday cage does not require grounding to work, but its still recommanded to properly ground microwaves. Also, unless your electrician had a catastrophic fuck up, the metal cage will never be at live voltage, with or without grounding.
- ganzuul 5y agoThe specific scenario I have in mind is a student living on their own for the first time, cooking with a microwave in their room. Many catastrophic fuckups that we were quick to forget took place during this phase in life. You might take apart a microwave oven and discover that there are actually several pieces of sheet metal in them. Expensive ones connect them by staked wires. The capacitor is usually rated for 2000 volts and it packs quite a punch.
- dhdc 5y agoHow does a student living on their own has to do with anything about microwaves having "lethal potentials"? And what does the high-voltage capacitor has to do with sheet metals? I'm sorry, but I really cannot follow your logic here.
- ganzuul 5y agoHave you ever looked inside a very dirty computer? It's quite simple.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
- dzhiurgis 5y agoMy bluetooth speaker always cuts out when nuker is on, but never notice any issues with wifi - wonder why.
- exac 5y agoBecause Bluetooth uses 2.4 GHz, and your wifi is on 5GHz.
- tonymet 5y agowith your phone outside , graph rssi and noise . turn on the microwave you will see it drop
- hedora 5y agoAlternatively, you could buy a microwave leak detector for $20-30.
- scionthefly 5y agoToo much call of the void in this tool. The phone is in the microwave. I could push start. All I need to do is push start. Just...zap. Poof. Sizzle.
- aimor 5y agoAn alternative method: build a LEctenna. https://www.nrl.navy.mil/STEM/LEctenna-Challenge/ https://www.nrl.navy.mil/STEM/LEctenna-Challenge/ I stumbled across this little project a few weeks back, ordered the parts (just a diode and an led), and it works. Put a bowl of water in the microwave (or dinner), turn it on, then wave the lectenna around the cracks and see where it lights up. I originally found the lectenna by researching if it was possible to power an LED wirelessly by leeching power from a house 60Hz line. I haven't made any progress on that, so if you have ideas I'd love to hear them.
- dhdc 5y agoOscilloscopes often pick up some small voltage at 60Hz when the probe isn't connected to anything, and that voltage increases when a human touches the probe by acting as an antenna. But this is because of the scope's high input impedance(1-10MΩ); as soon as you try to power something off that, the voltage just collapse to zero.
- fy20 5y agoIf you run a low voltage 24V DC power cable for lighting next to a 220V AC line (I'm in Europe, no idea if 120V does the same) it's quite easy to get a situation where there is enough power for LED lights to be lit even when switched off. This is why low voltage wiring (lighting, ethernet, hdmi, etc) should not be ran parallel to AC power cables.
- aimor 5y agoNeat idea! I went ahead I tried it with a 5GHz connection (the site was practically begging me to) and it turns out my microwave blocks both 2.4 and 5 GHz signals. Pretty cool! If your wondering, it's a decade old Sunbeam that I bought for $30 so nothing special. https://ibb.co/JFcZp9H https://ibb.co/JFcZp9H
- pipeline_peak 5y ago
- hanoz 5y agoThis was one of my first app ideas about 10 years ago. Unfortunately my microwave had a mechanical timer such that if you opened the door when it was running the microwaving would stop, and on closing again it would resume. Unbeknown to me the door had been so opened, and on closing, with my HTC Desire inside, it duely resumed.
- O5vYtytb 5y agothats an awful feature
- zdragnar 5y agoIt is pretty convenient as long as you aren't putting cell phones into it.
- hilbert42 5y agoThe screening/Faraday cage will still work with the mains power disconnected, so one should ensure the mains plug is removed before such a test. Note: I'm a past master at destroying old electronics in my microvave (this way I can't change my mind later and then not throw it out). About three seconds is all it takes (just time for the magnetron filament to warm up) - any longer and the stuff starts to stink from the heat. There's no second chance if you make a mistake.
- alanbernstein 5y agoThis seems like an odd way to destroy electronics. What's wrong with a hammer?
- hilbert42 5y agoIt's quick and easy and less dangerous (and more final) than a hammer! I've been known to change my mind half way through destroying something when I think of another use for it - the microwave method ensures that the part of me that doesn't like throwing out electronic things that still work always gets thwarted. The idea of microwaving electronics came to me a long while ago for very different reasons. In the early days of microcomputer control systems I used to work with Intel Multibus computer systems (these are so old you better check this Wiki out to know what I'm talking about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multibus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multibus). In those days Multibus boards were hellishly expensive and we used quite a lot of them. If one went faulty then we either fixed it at board level or if it failed within the warranty period then we returned it to the agent who then had it fixed (boards were always repaired - never thrown away). Anyway, one board we received had an intermittent fault and I had it returned under warranty and the agent supposedly fixed it and returned it but it was still intermittent (you know, it had one of those annoying intermittents that was rare enough for one to think the problem was fixed when it wasn't). This toing and froing to the agent occurred at least three times and the problem still wasn't solved so I put an end to it by putting the board in the department's lunchroom microwave. The plan was to damage a sufficient number of ICs to render the board beyond economic repair (BER) but not make the matter of microwaving it obvious to the supplier. This was very successful, a new board with a different serial number was supplied and the intermittent problem disappead. To accomplish a truly defective board without obvious signs of user 'abuse' requires some care. The aim is to provide just sufficient microwave energy to puncture or short-circuit the junctions in the ICs but to not make it obvious (in practice, about one second of RF is needed to accomplish this). Excessive RF will heat the silicon to the point where it boils the ICs' encapsulating compound and one ends up with little craters in the middle of the ICs which make it obvious the board's been zapped. Most microwave ovens take about 3 seconds before any RF appears (no RF will appear until the magnetron cathode is hot enough to become emissive), so it's important to calibrate your oven before embarking on such an exercise. I've used this technique very effectivly a number of times over the years. I must mention another incident long after the first, however this one had nothing to do with Multibus. It involved a setup jig for programming certain electronic equipment and its motherboard was about as complex as a Multibus one. When motherboards failed I either fixed them or returned them to the manufacturer's repairer who was in a third country (he was renowned for fixing dead boards that people like me considered BER). Again, we had an intermittent board that had crossed the oceans a number of times and it was still intermittent so I finally gave it the microwave treatment and returned it to him. Right, this silly bugger actually wasn't going to let it defeat him, he returned the board to me with a message to the effect 'this was a very problematic board, I had to replace about half the ICs [about 50 total per board], seems it was hit by a lightening surge'. Well, the board worked - sort of - but it had new and different intermittents (presumably, some of the ICs he'd not replaced were suffering breakdown puncture in their SiO2 insulation and thus were experiencing partial failures). I returned the board again without any extra zaping and this time it was replaced with a different one (presumably, he'd either given up on it or wasn't prepared for my wrath when or if it failed again). BTW, one can get pretty good at this if you calibrate your microwave carefully. Such zapping should never exceed nuking more than about 25% of the ICs. This is usually sufficient to deter most diehard repairers whilst not drawing their attention to the actual cause of the failure.
- femto 5y agoNeat idea, though it's not a definitive test. In my experience a microwave oven cavity provides about 40dB attenuation, and it's possible to maintain an LTE connection with that sort of path loss. Hint: If you're ever doing radio work in the field and need an instant Faraday cage a microwave oven is a good candidate. Turn the power off first to reduce the risk of accidentally irradiating your device, but leave it plugged in to get an earth connection to the shield. (This is how I know an LTE connection can be maintained in a microwave oven.)
- fmasood 5y agoDepending on your region, LTE could be using much higher frequencies. Microwave ovens use a fixed frequency and the cage is designed for that. Considering this I would say it's still an effective test.
- kurthr 5y agoI'll confirm this works very well for 3G (600-900MHz) although I cut the hot off the plug out of paranoia when using one this way. Some of the 4&5G bands are up above 3GHz where it won't work so well. Since your WiFi signal, however is almost exactly the same and there are many apps that will show and record signal in dB (as described in TFA). You could measure while the door open/closed if you're really careful not to turn it on. The lithium battery fire could respond very badly to water!
- donkeydoug 5y agorelated question... I have a bluetooth headset (aftershokz aeropex), when my microwave is running the audio from my phone seems to get interrupted. think it also happens if just the phone is near the microwave. should I be concerned ?
- dhdc 5y agoIts typical.
- davidmurdoch 5y agoI needed to test behavior of an app on an actual iphone with flaky cellular and thought a microwave would be a great place to simulate this. It wasn't. The cellular connection was unaffected. Wrapping the phone in aluminum foil killed the signal enough though.
- sgerenser 5y agoSo should I be concerned if the phone seemed to keep pinging just fine inside the Microwave? I also notice my Bluetooth headset break up if I’m near the microwave while it’s running.
- sandworm101 5y agoOr, just use an Ubertooth sniffer. From anywhere near a running microwave you should see it in the 2.4gh range. Its cool to see how some microwaves vary the frequency up and down during a cycle. It looks like a standing wave bouncing back and forth. This also explains the common office phenomena of the wifi dropping every time someone nukes something. https://youtu.be/DCYrrNQc3lM https://youtu.be/DCYrrNQc3lM https://youtu.be/6N3P842Nay8 https://youtu.be/6N3P842Nay8 Whether your phone can connect from inside is not a great standard. Your phone's antenna is maybe 1/100,000 the power of a microwave oven magnetron.
- dhdc 5y agoIgnoring impedance and assuming the microwave oven is rated at 1kW. 1kilowatt = 60dBm. A typical WiFi receivers works fine at -60dBm = 1 nanowatt. 60-(-60)=120dB, or 12 orders of magnitude. To put that into persepective, a WiFi receiver work with 1/1,000,000,000,000 the power of a 1kW microwave oven.
- noduerme 5y agoBrilliant. The best part of this was running into the kitchen while my girlfriend was washing dishes and watching her face as I put my phone in the microwave ;)