4 ms·

The Goodenough battery is truly the best case of nominative determinism in history. No one is going to want to drive on sodium batteries, which are merely good

The Goodenough battery is truly the best case of nominative determinism in history. No one is going to want to drive on sodium batteries, which are merely good, rather than good enough. We're talking about the weight of a Tesla with the range of a Leaf, as a best case scenario. As for lithium, there are absolutely enormous amounts of it in highly available form, in the parts of the world where brine evaporated relatively recently. The Great Basin has a lot of those. When you say lithium extraction is difficult to do profitably, this is just a way of saying the supply/demand curve yields cheap lithium in 2022. We're in no danger of supply issues at the right price, no one who wants to buy some lithium is coming up short, and no such future is at all likely in this century.

vosper 5y ago
> No one is going to want to drive on sodium batteries, which are merely good, rather than good enough. We're talking about the weight of a Tesla with the range of a Leaf, as a best case scenario. Do many people care about the weight of their car? I would bet most people couldn’t tell you what their car weighs with any accuracy (me, for one). People happily drive giant heavy trucks (like an F150) for much shorter distances than the range of a Leaf. Or weight matters for some other reason? Shipping?
- wmf 5y ago
  Stating the obvious: A car has to move its own weight, so heavy batteries combined with a wimpy motor could result in poor acceleration.
  - panick21_ 5y ago
    Acceleration is the last problem EV have.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  The energy required to move increases with mass. More energy, more pollution. We want more efficiency, not less. More mass also means collisions are higher energy, so crash and pedestrian safety become an issue at lower speeds. The tradeoffs have to justify the extra weight, so money saved on batteries has to exceed money spent on stronger frames, etc. I think Tesla is playing at the edges, so it's probably safe to say inefficient (heavier) batteries aren't going to be feasible.
  - panick21_ 5y ago
    By that logic people now wouldn't use LFP. Demand is huge, and a slightly bigger/heavier battery is totally acceptable if the battery can be cheaper. The reality is it is better to produce more EV even with batteries that are not at peak density specially if they are cheaper. As I pointed out, Sodium could get reasonably to LFP. So just as we moved from NMC to LFP, we will move from LFP to Sodium. That doesn't mean NMC or LFP will go away. All of the above are needed.
panick21_ 5y ago
> No one is going to want to drive on sodium batteries, which are merely good, rather than good enough. We're talking about the weight of a Tesla with the range of a Leaf, as a best case scenario. People said the same about LFP and Sodium is getting pretty close to that on a system level. You have to consider the whole pack and its price. The reality is that there are literally millions that could run with sodium and be a practical product. And the extra volume required is actually not that big a problem in many vehicles. > When you say lithium extraction is difficult to do profitably, this is just a way of saying the supply/demand curve yields cheap lithium in 2022. No actually lithium is getting more and more expensive and demand is growing at insane rates while getting new mines in production is really hard. So the price will likely continue to go up. > We're in no danger of supply issues at the right price, no one who wants to buy some lithium is coming up short, and no such future is at all likely in this century. Price go up until some people that had plans will reconsider those plans.
scythe 5y ago
Sodium rhodizonate [1] gets a comparable real density to lithium by using an excellent cathode (rhodizonate) that doesn't work with lithium. The thing is that the rhodizonate method hasn't escaped Yi Cui's lab as far as I can tell. 1: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-017-0014-y?from=article_link https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-017-0014-y?from=artic...

vosper 5y ago

> No one is going to want to drive on sodium batteries, which are merely good, rather than good enough. We're talking about the weight of a Tesla with the range of a Leaf, as a best case scenario. Do many people care about the weight of their car? I would bet most people couldn’t tell you what their car weighs with any accuracy (me, for one). People happily drive giant heavy trucks (like an F150) for much shorter distances than the range of a Leaf. Or weight matters for some other reason? Shipping?

wmf 5y ago
Stating the obvious: A car has to move its own weight, so heavy batteries combined with a wimpy motor could result in poor acceleration.
- panick21_ 5y ago
  Acceleration is the last problem EV have.
robbedpeter 5y ago
The energy required to move increases with mass. More energy, more pollution. We want more efficiency, not less. More mass also means collisions are higher energy, so crash and pedestrian safety become an issue at lower speeds. The tradeoffs have to justify the extra weight, so money saved on batteries has to exceed money spent on stronger frames, etc. I think Tesla is playing at the edges, so it's probably safe to say inefficient (heavier) batteries aren't going to be feasible.
- panick21_ 5y ago
  By that logic people now wouldn't use LFP. Demand is huge, and a slightly bigger/heavier battery is totally acceptable if the battery can be cheaper. The reality is it is better to produce more EV even with batteries that are not at peak density specially if they are cheaper. As I pointed out, Sodium could get reasonably to LFP. So just as we moved from NMC to LFP, we will move from LFP to Sodium. That doesn't mean NMC or LFP will go away. All of the above are needed.

panick21_ 5y ago

> No one is going to want to drive on sodium batteries, which are merely good, rather than good enough. We're talking about the weight of a Tesla with the range of a Leaf, as a best case scenario. People said the same about LFP and Sodium is getting pretty close to that on a system level. You have to consider the whole pack and its price. The reality is that there are literally millions that could run with sodium and be a practical product. And the extra volume required is actually not that big a problem in many vehicles. > When you say lithium extraction is difficult to do profitably, this is just a way of saying the supply/demand curve yields cheap lithium in 2022. No actually lithium is getting more and more expensive and demand is growing at insane rates while getting new mines in production is really hard. So the price will likely continue to go up. > We're in no danger of supply issues at the right price, no one who wants to buy some lithium is coming up short, and no such future is at all likely in this century. Price go up until some people that had plans will reconsider those plans.

scythe 5y ago

Sodium rhodizonate [1] gets a comparable real density to lithium by using an excellent cathode (rhodizonate) that doesn't work with lithium. The thing is that the rhodizonate method hasn't escaped Yi Cui's lab as far as I can tell. 1: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-017-0014-y?from=article_link https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-017-0014-y?from=artic...