6 ms·

It would be so much easier for any skilled worker to flee Russia if various western companies would stop virtue signalling and stop this trend of cancelling all

It would be so much easier for any skilled worker to flee Russia if various western companies would stop virtue signalling and stop this trend of cancelling all services for Russians. By doing this they feel good, but are actually helping Putin and his criminal gang. I was ready for our criminal government to start building a Russian Firewall to hinder access to non-government propaganda for Russian Citizens, but I wasn't ready for EU and USA to help them do this. Take Figma, these dumb fucks decided to stop providing services to Russian users. Whom do they think they are punishing? UI designers, who are overwhelmingly against war and Putin? Real Putin supporters don't even know Figma exists. I had a personal firewall on ionos hosting (registered to an Estonian company, no less!). These dumb fucks sent me a notification that they are cancelling my server in a few days, so I need to move out. Thank you, idiots, according to you I only must have access to what government tells me. The list goes on. Remember this: when some politician says, "stop issuing visas to russians", or company CEO "we'll stop providing services to Russians", he is unwittingly a Putin ally.

pain2022 5y ago
I too would like to hear a rational explanation of how Netflix and Figma cancelling services to Russians helps Ukraine
- sofixa 5y ago
  It makes the situation worse for the average Russian. Happy people (bread and circuses) don't revolt. And yes, a revolution in Russia is basically the only way this war can end without Ukraine making serious sacrifices.
Femtio 5y ago
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  Yeah, taking part in every protest against Putin in the last 12 years, being detained at a protest wasn't enough punishment for me. I should better perish in the announced coming purge of the fifth column, because persons like you like to feel good about themselves making statements like this one you made. You people are exactly like the ones who were turning away Jews fleeing the Nazi Germany. And if you think that being against Putin in this country does not have potentially deadly consequences, you must think again.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar or cross into personal attack, no matter how provocative another comment is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Ok, sorry.
  - Femtio 5y ago
  - zen_1 5y ago
    I find it quite rich when people who have only ever lived in democracies condescend to those living in dictatorships about how we should have simply "protested harder" against the status quo. I'm sorry Mr. Virtue Signaler safe in SF or NYC, but if my choices are shutting up temporarily in exchange for my and my family's continued security, versus "speaking truth to power" (or some other such drivel) and waking up in a black site the next day, I know which one I'm taking.
- dang 5y ago
  You can't advocate for collective punishment on HN. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Femtio 5y ago
    ? Sry? So advocating for any punishment (which every sanction is) is not okay? So everyone on hn is against sanctions?
lolinder 5y ago
I'm sorry that this is the way that it is, but do note that the real reason for most companies doing this has less to do with "punishing" anyone and more to do with practical concerns like "how do we get paid?" and "how do we make sure we don't accidentally violate sanctions?" Russia likely represents a small enough fraction of most companies' users that it's cheaper to just stop doing business there than to keep adjusting to the rapidly changing political/geopolitical climate.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  There are ways to pay for services. With up to 50% additional expenses, but it is possible. I also did some research, and it seems that services without KYC obligations so not need to comply with the sanction restrictions imposed on specific persons, so this excuse looks to be invalid for services like Figma. (And in the future I wouldn't trust any SaaS that unilaterally cuts off a whole group of customers by their nationality)
  - lolinder 5y ago
    > (And in the future I wouldn't trust any SaaS that unilaterally cuts off a whole group of customers by their nationality) Just to clarify, this is not what is happening. Figma et al are cutting off a whole group of customers by their place of residence, which is a completely different question, and one that is much less legally and ethically fraught.
yostrovs 5y ago
- dang 5y ago
  Advocating for collective punishment is a serious breach of the site guidelines and is not allowed here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are on a topic. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Femtio 5y ago
    The guidelines do not contain any mention of punishment. And if a sanction is punishment, we are not allowed to discuss if sanctions and what level of them is okay?
    - lolinder 5y ago
      It's one thing to say "I recognize that individual Russians are not at fault, but in the middle of a total war civilians inevitably get caught in the crossfire. At least with these economic weapons no one is getting killed." It's another to say "you are all at fault, even if indirectly, and so you all deserve to be punished." That second comment would violate at least "be kind" and "comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Modern international law is based on the acknowledgement of popular sovereignty, which has an unavoidable "collective" dimension. What's wrong with making the argument that, like most everything else, sovereignty comes with rights but also responsibilities when the country that one's "sovereign" on starts engaging in bad behavior towards others? Average Germans have had to apologize and be responsible "collectively", at least to some extent, for the Nazi regime's atrocities. Was that inhumane, too?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kemitchell 5y ago
You're angry. I understand. No one likes having services taken away. I work with Russians. I see accounts getting cut off or threatened to be cut off. But none of the firms are saying "we'll stop providing services to Russians". They are saying "we'll stop doing business in the Russian economy". Russian citizens are still very much using Figma, for example. But not in Russia, through Russian companies, using Russian credit cards. Conversely, non-Russian immigrants in Russia are also cut off. Ukrainians working in Russia are getting cut off. The reason is the sanctions and the difficulty of complying with them. It's way easier to implement via geofencing, or by denying Russian-registered payment cards, than by checking users and companies against the ever-changing sanctions lists manually. And yes, many companies are horrified by the war and want to do something about it. Maybe something more than the sanctions require. The purpose is to punish the Russian state and curtail its finance of the war. It doesn't really matter if Vasya Designer from Voronezh curses Putin and the war over tea at the dining room table every day. Putin doesn't care what Vasya thinks. So long as he keeps working, making money, paying his taxes, he contributes to the economy. His inner feelings do not affect the war. Even if there are many like him, it's unclear how they will change policy. 15 years, torture stories, and footage of crackdowns from Minsk to Almaty are pretty scary. They keep Putin from having to care what Vasya thinks, or how many think like him. I know good people in Russia who can't leave and won't leave. It makes me sad, too, seeing them cut off, isolated, worried about money and their children. But it's the news from Ukraine that makes me truly angry.
tomjen3 5y ago
It would also make it less desirable to move. Besides the biggest hindrance of the emigraes is probably the bank account USD limit, but that is all Russias doing.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  There are no limits for payments from Russian side. If not for visa/mastercard restrictions, Russian cards with RUB balance would still be available for payments abroad. But yes, the current situation is that anti-government Russians are being actively strangled from both from within and from abroad.
eikeegi 5y ago
Russians have had 20 odd years to do something about their government. I would argue that if you are a citizen of Russia, you are the Putin ally here by letting things go so bad. I understand that NOW it is a lot harder to reform the system or bring about any positive changes. This ship has probably sailed. The Russian people are now reaping what they perhaps not sowed, but have ALLOWED to grow. You are really not the victim nor others the idiots. The world just is having a bit courage to show what they feel about Russia. To put it nicely - Russia has so far been tolerated. I'm slightly puzzled by the phrase "Estonian company, no less" (I am an Estonian myself).
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  I think that instead of condemning Russians for allowing Putin's regime to grow, an Estonian like you should be a little grateful that there were enough democracy-leaning Russians in 1980s who had weakened the soviet empire so that the other republics could slip away and have their chance of freedom. Some took it, like Baltic states, some turned into classical sultanates, some remain a battleground. The Russians, however, had to bear with all the KGB apparatus which remained firm in its place, and after enduring economic hardships of the 90s were feeling they were cheated by everyone. So no wonder that an upsurge in oil prices in the early 00s helped to create a calm and positive atmosphere, where the gradual deterioration of the democracy institutions went almost unnoticed. And actually it was unnoticed not only by Russians, but by everyone else: President Buss was Putin's 'friend', Germany chancellor ended up on a Gazprom board, the Queen was visiting Russia, etc., all was nice and fluffy. And let's not forget that the real funders of Putin's aggression are buyers of his energy exports, and they do this to this very moment, on the 30 odd day of the war, even having an exemption from Swift cutoff just to pay for it! But of course UI designers can no longer have their Figma access, that would be supporting Putin's regime. Regarding the estonian company - I don't even know why exactly Ionos sent me a discontinuation of service notice. I operate my business with a company based in Estonia - mostly to NOT pay taxes to Putin's criminal regime - and hosting was invoiced to that company, and paid with that company's funds. So how they even arrived to a conclusion that I'm a customer from russia is rather interesting.
nofuture1 5y ago
This really hurts. I left Russia a while ago, have not paid taxes there since then, and otherwise have no connection to the country, but I still feel like everyone hates me because of my passport and my language. It seems we truly are the new Germans as they were around 1940s. None of it matters right now. The current goal is to stop the war at any cost, and people are just trying to do something. I suggest we have a discussion about what we can do to help despite the (indiscriminate) pressure.

pain2022 5y ago

I too would like to hear a rational explanation of how Netflix and Figma cancelling services to Russians helps Ukraine

sofixa 5y ago
It makes the situation worse for the average Russian. Happy people (bread and circuses) don't revolt. And yes, a revolution in Russia is basically the only way this war can end without Ukraine making serious sacrifices.

Femtio 5y ago

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Yeah, taking part in every protest against Putin in the last 12 years, being detained at a protest wasn't enough punishment for me. I should better perish in the announced coming purge of the fifth column, because persons like you like to feel good about themselves making statements like this one you made. You people are exactly like the ones who were turning away Jews fleeing the Nazi Germany. And if you think that being against Putin in this country does not have potentially deadly consequences, you must think again.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar or cross into personal attack, no matter how provocative another comment is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Ok, sorry.
- Femtio 5y ago
- zen_1 5y ago
  I find it quite rich when people who have only ever lived in democracies condescend to those living in dictatorships about how we should have simply "protested harder" against the status quo. I'm sorry Mr. Virtue Signaler safe in SF or NYC, but if my choices are shutting up temporarily in exchange for my and my family's continued security, versus "speaking truth to power" (or some other such drivel) and waking up in a black site the next day, I know which one I'm taking.
dang 5y ago
You can't advocate for collective punishment on HN. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Femtio 5y ago
  ? Sry? So advocating for any punishment (which every sanction is) is not okay? So everyone on hn is against sanctions?

lolinder 5y ago

I'm sorry that this is the way that it is, but do note that the real reason for most companies doing this has less to do with "punishing" anyone and more to do with practical concerns like "how do we get paid?" and "how do we make sure we don't accidentally violate sanctions?" Russia likely represents a small enough fraction of most companies' users that it's cheaper to just stop doing business there than to keep adjusting to the rapidly changing political/geopolitical climate.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
There are ways to pay for services. With up to 50% additional expenses, but it is possible. I also did some research, and it seems that services without KYC obligations so not need to comply with the sanction restrictions imposed on specific persons, so this excuse looks to be invalid for services like Figma. (And in the future I wouldn't trust any SaaS that unilaterally cuts off a whole group of customers by their nationality)
- lolinder 5y ago
  > (And in the future I wouldn't trust any SaaS that unilaterally cuts off a whole group of customers by their nationality) Just to clarify, this is not what is happening. Figma et al are cutting off a whole group of customers by their place of residence, which is a completely different question, and one that is much less legally and ethically fraught.

yostrovs 5y ago

dang 5y ago
Advocating for collective punishment is a serious breach of the site guidelines and is not allowed here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are on a topic. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Femtio 5y ago
  The guidelines do not contain any mention of punishment. And if a sanction is punishment, we are not allowed to discuss if sanctions and what level of them is okay?
  - lolinder 5y ago
    It's one thing to say "I recognize that individual Russians are not at fault, but in the middle of a total war civilians inevitably get caught in the crossfire. At least with these economic weapons no one is getting killed." It's another to say "you are all at fault, even if indirectly, and so you all deserve to be punished." That second comment would violate at least "be kind" and "comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Modern international law is based on the acknowledgement of popular sovereignty, which has an unavoidable "collective" dimension. What's wrong with making the argument that, like most everything else, sovereignty comes with rights but also responsibilities when the country that one's "sovereign" on starts engaging in bad behavior towards others? Average Germans have had to apologize and be responsible "collectively", at least to some extent, for the Nazi regime's atrocities. Was that inhumane, too?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kemitchell 5y ago

You're angry. I understand. No one likes having services taken away. I work with Russians. I see accounts getting cut off or threatened to be cut off. But none of the firms are saying "we'll stop providing services to Russians". They are saying "we'll stop doing business in the Russian economy". Russian citizens are still very much using Figma, for example. But not in Russia, through Russian companies, using Russian credit cards. Conversely, non-Russian immigrants in Russia are also cut off. Ukrainians working in Russia are getting cut off. The reason is the sanctions and the difficulty of complying with them. It's way easier to implement via geofencing, or by denying Russian-registered payment cards, than by checking users and companies against the ever-changing sanctions lists manually. And yes, many companies are horrified by the war and want to do something about it. Maybe something more than the sanctions require. The purpose is to punish the Russian state and curtail its finance of the war. It doesn't really matter if Vasya Designer from Voronezh curses Putin and the war over tea at the dining room table every day. Putin doesn't care what Vasya thinks. So long as he keeps working, making money, paying his taxes, he contributes to the economy. His inner feelings do not affect the war. Even if there are many like him, it's unclear how they will change policy. 15 years, torture stories, and footage of crackdowns from Minsk to Almaty are pretty scary. They keep Putin from having to care what Vasya thinks, or how many think like him. I know good people in Russia who can't leave and won't leave. It makes me sad, too, seeing them cut off, isolated, worried about money and their children. But it's the news from Ukraine that makes me truly angry.

tomjen3 5y ago

It would also make it less desirable to move. Besides the biggest hindrance of the emigraes is probably the bank account USD limit, but that is all Russias doing.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
There are no limits for payments from Russian side. If not for visa/mastercard restrictions, Russian cards with RUB balance would still be available for payments abroad. But yes, the current situation is that anti-government Russians are being actively strangled from both from within and from abroad.

eikeegi 5y ago

Russians have had 20 odd years to do something about their government. I would argue that if you are a citizen of Russia, you are the Putin ally here by letting things go so bad. I understand that NOW it is a lot harder to reform the system or bring about any positive changes. This ship has probably sailed. The Russian people are now reaping what they perhaps not sowed, but have ALLOWED to grow. You are really not the victim nor others the idiots. The world just is having a bit courage to show what they feel about Russia. To put it nicely - Russia has so far been tolerated. I'm slightly puzzled by the phrase "Estonian company, no less" (I am an Estonian myself).

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
I think that instead of condemning Russians for allowing Putin's regime to grow, an Estonian like you should be a little grateful that there were enough democracy-leaning Russians in 1980s who had weakened the soviet empire so that the other republics could slip away and have their chance of freedom. Some took it, like Baltic states, some turned into classical sultanates, some remain a battleground. The Russians, however, had to bear with all the KGB apparatus which remained firm in its place, and after enduring economic hardships of the 90s were feeling they were cheated by everyone. So no wonder that an upsurge in oil prices in the early 00s helped to create a calm and positive atmosphere, where the gradual deterioration of the democracy institutions went almost unnoticed. And actually it was unnoticed not only by Russians, but by everyone else: President Buss was Putin's 'friend', Germany chancellor ended up on a Gazprom board, the Queen was visiting Russia, etc., all was nice and fluffy. And let's not forget that the real funders of Putin's aggression are buyers of his energy exports, and they do this to this very moment, on the 30 odd day of the war, even having an exemption from Swift cutoff just to pay for it! But of course UI designers can no longer have their Figma access, that would be supporting Putin's regime. Regarding the estonian company - I don't even know why exactly Ionos sent me a discontinuation of service notice. I operate my business with a company based in Estonia - mostly to NOT pay taxes to Putin's criminal regime - and hosting was invoiced to that company, and paid with that company's funds. So how they even arrived to a conclusion that I'm a customer from russia is rather interesting.

nofuture1 5y ago

This really hurts. I left Russia a while ago, have not paid taxes there since then, and otherwise have no connection to the country, but I still feel like everyone hates me because of my passport and my language. It seems we truly are the new Germans as they were around 1940s. None of it matters right now. The current goal is to stop the war at any cost, and people are just trying to do something. I suggest we have a discussion about what we can do to help despite the (indiscriminate) pressure.