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instead of asking for handouts they should fix their situation by putting in effort, taking responsibility and standing up for themselves and each other. Isn't

instead of asking for handouts they should fix their situation by putting in effort, taking responsibility and standing up for themselves and each other. Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Taking responsibility can take many different forms. No, those people are not taking an individualist entrepreneur route that most here on this particular forum are probably more comfortable with. However, the individualist approach cannot solve every problem. Sometimes, a different route is needed. The Occupy Wall Street protests are exactly the kind of process by which people are taking responsibility. Ideas are fermenting there, people are activated, becoming involved at whichever level (political or otherwise). This is not a uniform process - certainly, many people will just be there out of rage, not really becoming activated, but at the same time, many people undergo transformations, gaining knowledge, forming goals, talking about and then attempting concrete steps to get what they want. This is hard to believe if you've never actually been in touch with a movement like this, mostly because it is impossible to see such developments from the outside. I've been personally involved in similar things when I was younger (though at a smaller, local scale), and even I can't see what's going on as an outsider. But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

lhnz 15y ago
> Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Okay, yes. In a way. But they're taking responsibility to try to get other people to do something for them. You're right, I do have an individualistic perspective on this. I don't think it works well. The only control they will get over the situation will be the control they're given by the government/big industry. > But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'll take the bait. What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes?
- nhaehnle 15y ago
  What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? First of all, I think we have to make sure we understand each other what the question is here. Most of the griefs of the protestors, as far as I understand them, can almost by definition only be solved by a government solution. (Assuming you accept their claim that they are not protesting for their individual well-being, but are instead protesting against systemic issues in society.) Bank regulation comes to mind - obviously, banks cannot be regulated by individuals. The same thing applies to macroeconomic problems such as mass unemployment. Once you recognize that a given problem can only be resolved by government changing its behavior, there remains the question of how you proceed. Do you simply shout about it on the street, or are you trying to do more? It is this "more" that I was talking about, which usually happens in movements like this. Of course I cannot give you concrete examples since I am not involved in the whole Occupy Wall Street thing, and outside observers can only see them after the fact, if they have been successful. It usually starts with people genuinely interested in learning. Groups form where people teach each other and become creative. People spend a lot of time thinking about how to fix the problems, and trying to reach out to those who are already in a position to implement their plans. Some may go on trying to run for office themselves. And so on. This is often unsuccessful for obvious reasons - changing the behavior of government is extremely difficult. But it's not unsuccessful for a lack of trying. More often, the greatest problem is the fact that the people involved are simply inexperienced in dealing with those type of power structures, and therefore fail to acquire enough social influence to really effect a change.
- nhaehnle 15y ago
  What I wrote in the sibling reply still stands, but I should probably emphasize that how we interpret your question is really, really important. In particular, you wrote (emphasis mine): > What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? There are two ways to read that "their": A) Each person is protesting for a solution to his or her individual woes. B) They are protesting for a solution to the woes of all of them. The distinction is important because yes, if all you're protesting for is your own personal well-being, then I would agree that you should get off your sorry ass and just improve yourself. However, if you are genuinely concerned about the well-being of society as a whole, things are suddenly very different. I suspect that you are implicitly working off an A-type interpretation, while I am working off a B-type interpretation. That's a likely source of misunderstanding.
jstedfast 15y ago
> Isn't that exactly what they're doing? No. They are blaming everyone else for their problems and expecting everyone else to pick up their slack. That's not taking personal responsibility. What they need to do is learn to spend responsibly - if they're in debt up to their eyeballs, who's fault is that other than their own for not planning ahead and spending responsibly? Learn the expression: "Save for a rainy day". Learn how to shop around for jobs (sorry, but companys don't come knocking on the average recent college grad's doors begging him/her to work for them). I've been laid off twice in the past 4 years (once as recently as May) and I haven't had any problems finding a new job either time. Is that because I'm one of the "evil" 1% that is taking advantage of the poor helpless 99%? Fuck no, it's because I'm not a whiny little spoiled brat. It's because I take personal responsibility. What these "99%" protestors really want is government handouts. But who pays for those handouts? People like me who take personal responsibility and save our money and work our asses off so we actually have jobs. Money's gotta come from somewhere, folks, and that somewhere is the pockets of the people out there working at jobs they worked hard to get. What these protestors fail to realize is that they are the very problem they are protesting against. They are the ones who voted for the politicians who forced the banks to provide subprime loans to home-buyers who were spending far beyond their means and gave promises to those banks that the government would bail them out if things ever went south (and duh, they did). They were the ones that put pressure on those politicians to put pressure on the banks to loan money to people who shouldn't be taking out loans they'd never be able to pay back. Then they voted for Obama who foolishly thought throwing money around would magically solve the situation. Duh, it didn't - it just made the middle class poorer. Then to make matters worse, they pushed Obamacare on all of us. What's that going to cost middle-America? Last estimate I saw from the Democrats was 4 TRILLION which means it'll be more like 8 trillion all said and done (politicians are horrendously bad at simple math, ever notice that?). Nevermind the fact that if Democrats get their way, it'll mean more tax hikes (and not just for the wealthy for whom politicians always like to provide loopholes because they themselves dodge taxes like fiends - just take a look at Obama's cabinet - some of whom were caught not having paid taxes in decades). So what has this extremely expensive Obamacare gotten for the average working-class American? Allow me to enumerate all that we got: - trillions more debt to pay off - higher taxes (gotta pay off that debt somehow and now we get to pay for healthcare for freeloaders as well, yippie!) - longer lines at the clinics (did you really think providing people who didn't have healthcare before with free healthcare was going to make shorter lines? If so, I got a broken android phone to sell you). - higher health insurance rates - higher deductables (mine has gone up from $300 to $1000 and according to a news article I read the other day I'm not alone, something like 20% others got shafted the same, with the rest of the population sure to follow in the next year or two). Oh, yea, let's all cheer for Obama care. [unenthusiastic cheer]. Seriously, people, use your brains and think for once. Instead of wasting everyone's time protesting, get off your asses and get a job so the rest of us can stop being forced to support you by paying higher taxes. You're only compounding the problem and dragging the rest of us down with you.

lhnz 15y ago

> Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Okay, yes. In a way. But they're taking responsibility to try to get other people to do something for them. You're right, I do have an individualistic perspective on this. I don't think it works well. The only control they will get over the situation will be the control they're given by the government/big industry. > But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'll take the bait. What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes?

nhaehnle 15y ago
What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? First of all, I think we have to make sure we understand each other what the question is here. Most of the griefs of the protestors, as far as I understand them, can almost by definition only be solved by a government solution. (Assuming you accept their claim that they are not protesting for their individual well-being, but are instead protesting against systemic issues in society.) Bank regulation comes to mind - obviously, banks cannot be regulated by individuals. The same thing applies to macroeconomic problems such as mass unemployment. Once you recognize that a given problem can only be resolved by government changing its behavior, there remains the question of how you proceed. Do you simply shout about it on the street, or are you trying to do more? It is this "more" that I was talking about, which usually happens in movements like this. Of course I cannot give you concrete examples since I am not involved in the whole Occupy Wall Street thing, and outside observers can only see them after the fact, if they have been successful. It usually starts with people genuinely interested in learning. Groups form where people teach each other and become creative. People spend a lot of time thinking about how to fix the problems, and trying to reach out to those who are already in a position to implement their plans. Some may go on trying to run for office themselves. And so on. This is often unsuccessful for obvious reasons - changing the behavior of government is extremely difficult. But it's not unsuccessful for a lack of trying. More often, the greatest problem is the fact that the people involved are simply inexperienced in dealing with those type of power structures, and therefore fail to acquire enough social influence to really effect a change.
nhaehnle 15y ago
What I wrote in the sibling reply still stands, but I should probably emphasize that how we interpret your question is really, really important. In particular, you wrote (emphasis mine): > What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes? There are two ways to read that "their": A) Each person is protesting for a solution to his or her individual woes. B) They are protesting for a solution to the woes of all of them. The distinction is important because yes, if all you're protesting for is your own personal well-being, then I would agree that you should get off your sorry ass and just improve yourself. However, if you are genuinely concerned about the well-being of society as a whole, things are suddenly very different. I suspect that you are implicitly working off an A-type interpretation, while I am working off a B-type interpretation. That's a likely source of misunderstanding.

jstedfast 15y ago

> Isn't that exactly what they're doing? No. They are blaming everyone else for their problems and expecting everyone else to pick up their slack. That's not taking personal responsibility. What they need to do is learn to spend responsibly - if they're in debt up to their eyeballs, who's fault is that other than their own for not planning ahead and spending responsibly? Learn the expression: "Save for a rainy day". Learn how to shop around for jobs (sorry, but companys don't come knocking on the average recent college grad's doors begging him/her to work for them). I've been laid off twice in the past 4 years (once as recently as May) and I haven't had any problems finding a new job either time. Is that because I'm one of the "evil" 1% that is taking advantage of the poor helpless 99%? Fuck no, it's because I'm not a whiny little spoiled brat. It's because I take personal responsibility. What these "99%" protestors really want is government handouts. But who pays for those handouts? People like me who take personal responsibility and save our money and work our asses off so we actually have jobs. Money's gotta come from somewhere, folks, and that somewhere is the pockets of the people out there working at jobs they worked hard to get. What these protestors fail to realize is that they are the very problem they are protesting against. They are the ones who voted for the politicians who forced the banks to provide subprime loans to home-buyers who were spending far beyond their means and gave promises to those banks that the government would bail them out if things ever went south (and duh, they did). They were the ones that put pressure on those politicians to put pressure on the banks to loan money to people who shouldn't be taking out loans they'd never be able to pay back. Then they voted for Obama who foolishly thought throwing money around would magically solve the situation. Duh, it didn't - it just made the middle class poorer. Then to make matters worse, they pushed Obamacare on all of us. What's that going to cost middle-America? Last estimate I saw from the Democrats was 4 TRILLION which means it'll be more like 8 trillion all said and done (politicians are horrendously bad at simple math, ever notice that?). Nevermind the fact that if Democrats get their way, it'll mean more tax hikes (and not just for the wealthy for whom politicians always like to provide loopholes because they themselves dodge taxes like fiends - just take a look at Obama's cabinet - some of whom were caught not having paid taxes in decades). So what has this extremely expensive Obamacare gotten for the average working-class American? Allow me to enumerate all that we got: - trillions more debt to pay off - higher taxes (gotta pay off that debt somehow and now we get to pay for healthcare for freeloaders as well, yippie!) - longer lines at the clinics (did you really think providing people who didn't have healthcare before with free healthcare was going to make shorter lines? If so, I got a broken android phone to sell you). - higher health insurance rates - higher deductables (mine has gone up from $300 to $1000 and according to a news article I read the other day I'm not alone, something like 20% others got shafted the same, with the rest of the population sure to follow in the next year or two). Oh, yea, let's all cheer for Obama care. [unenthusiastic cheer]. Seriously, people, use your brains and think for once. Instead of wasting everyone's time protesting, get off your asses and get a job so the rest of us can stop being forced to support you by paying higher taxes. You're only compounding the problem and dragging the rest of us down with you.