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This was heartbreaking to read. What disturbs me most is the lack of any face-to-face time for this distributed team. I understand that not everyone likes to us

This was heartbreaking to read. What disturbs me most is the lack of any face-to-face time for this distributed team. I understand that not everyone likes to use a webcam, but to have gone 7 years without ever seeing your colleague's face seems, in my opinion, a symptom of a big managerial problem. Software engineers are usually humans, and teams composed of humans should make some effort to interact in a human way -- face to face (even just once a year!) It's also easier to get measure on how people are doing emotionally when you see them in person semi-regularly. (Not always, of course, but when you get to know people in person and learn their body language, you get a sense of their emotional baseline, and it gets easier to notice when something is off. Of course, none of this matters when there is no HR support because an employee is "just a contractor")

user_7832 5y ago
I was also surprised by the complete absence of face to face interaction. It seems very odd; though I hope it is not something that the author ends up regretting as well. Mental health needs to be talked about much more and de-stigmatized.
ENGNR 5y ago
I don't know, would it be more awkward for management to force you to turn on your webcam? I think the lack of face to face and the free language of this post shows some empathy. Maybe they could/should have arranged an in person trip sooner than that or something
- teknopaul 5y ago
  +1 I hate cameras, and pushing social media was a source of mental health issues for me. Lost a couple of colleagues recently, who I had never seen, I don't think cameras would have helped. Especially not when mourning loss. Face to face meetings are imperative, but not câmeras. Plenty of people are camera shy but just fine over dinner or a swift pint. Can't understate the importance of breaking bread.
- gkop 5y ago
  +1 to that would be awkward, and post shows some empathy A strong manager of course would not mandate micro behaviors like webcam use. A strong manager perhaps might 1) give space for the team to develop their own norms, 2) subtly nudge those norms with intention to test a hypothesis, gauge the result, and iterate and 3) once healthy norms have developed, take steps to formalize them (while taking care to maintain space for healthy dissent).
- bodge5000 5y ago
  Seems like a bigger managerial problem to disregard employees personal reasons for why they make not want to turn their cam on in the name of an easier measure if anything.
asyncscrum 5y ago
Am OP, can speak to the lack of cameras. We actually crafted our process in the Microsoft Lync era. Video was brutal. Also because of the diverse accents (Vietnamese, Portuguese, Russian, Scottish) it was easier to 'listen' without distraction. Obviously if you were starting today, cameras would be on. As you pointed out, probably a mistake.
- Philip-J-Fry 5y ago
  I feel like it's much easier to understand what someone is saying when you can see their face and mouth than if it's just audio.
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    Same here. Seeing their lips move often provides just enough additional information for me to correctly guess their words.
    - cfcosta 5y ago
      Nowadays, with high definition and close to no perceivable latency. Early video chat was so bad that having the video on was more distracting than helpful.
    - darkerside 5y ago
      I can see this not being the case with international latency causing lag between audio and video
- supertofu 5y ago
  I'm so very sorry for Pete's suffering and the loss to you and your team. I hope I didn't imply that "cameras are required for distributed teams!!" I don't agree with that and you're right that it's super impractical a lot of the time. I do hope to suggest that in-person team-building shouldn't be overlooked for the success and well-being of distributed teams.
- deleted 5y ago
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busterarm 5y ago
You'd be surprised how normal this is, historically, among remote-first companies (pre-pandemic). A decade or so ago, I worked at a remote-only company with 1600 employees and we never cammed up. We had a large number of employees with serious medical conditions or other personal issues that prevented them from holding down normal jobs and really appreciated not having to go on video.
- notamy 5y ago
  > We had a large number of employees with serious medical conditions or other personal issues that prevented them from holding down normal jobs and really appreciated not having to go on video. This is the reason I treasure my current company. The work I do works around my disability perfectly, they don't demand I have video on, they're very understanding of my health issues, ... I got seriously lucky and hope I don't have to leave this position for a long time.
  - leaflets2 5y ago
    Can I ask, what's the disability? When a company wants a video meeting, what are, to you, better ways to say "please join the meeting with video, but if you have a disability that makes you not want to use video, that's totally fine"? I hope you're doing ok in spite of the disability
    - notamy 5y ago
      > Can I ask, what's the disability? I would rather not specify, as it is quite personal. Suffice to say that I'm very affected physically and mentally day-to-day, so I'm typically unable to put effort into my appearance. > When a company wants a video meeting, what are, to you, better ways to say "please join the meeting with video, but if you have a disability that makes you not want to use video, that's totally fine"? I'm unsure how to best communicate that; the only thing I can think of is to just state up-front that video is not required. I typically don't have issue with just never turning on a webcam.
      - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
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hohoemi8 5y ago
I'm probably a minority but I don't care about my company or coworkers or building relationships. I'm just here to do a job to make money. As soon as I find a better offer I will happily quit. So being forced to use a camera to attend unnecessary meetings is just annoying to me.
- supertofu 5y ago
  For a long time I was like this too -- until I arrived at my current job. My dev coworkers are good friends, and I care immensely about their well-being.
robertlagrant 5y ago
> but to have gone 7 years without ever seeing your colleague's face seems, in my opinion, a symptom of a big managerial problem. Video calling is still a relatively recent thing. It will become more unusual not to have video calls, but the past is less likely to have had it, not more.
supernovae 5y ago
Depression is something we never talk about and don’t treat as a health concern. My daughter attempted suicide and it wasn’t for any reasons I could relate to. That was a hard lesson for me. What i did learn is that depression is taboo, therapy isn’t talked about openly, insurance doesn’t cover therapy well and there aren’t enough therapists in existence that the burden of depression seems to heavy. It’s not because we didn’t turn on cameras but because of systemic failures in our culture and a fascination with puritanical beliefs at all costs. Come to work depressed, come to work sick, work all day long, have no life, have no vacation, never mind the cost of living surpasses your ability to afford to live and now just living seems like the worst option.. replace work with school… not a single person here seems to be talking about how we’ve normalized suffering and as long as it’s always someone else, it’s their loneliness it’s their depression it’s their problem. we celebrate the people who would be psychopaths if we knew better.. it’s odd we have a society in place that doesn’t afford opportunity for all and not only doesn’t afford it, but is politically motivated to make sure people suffer for wanting to live it how they wished they could. the puritanical fetish at all cost - mostly because they suffered through it and so should you…
- bckr 5y ago
  > That was a hard lesson for me Let me tell you: you are a good parent merely for having this attitude.
- kasztelan222 5y ago
  Depression is hard. Much harder on the side of people having it, but being a manager and knowing people with that illness is also not easy. My company (Europe branch of big US corpo) was actually pretty good with handling that. They offered paid leave for one guy who wanted a intense therapy/camp. Unfortunately covid came and ended the program. The guy eventually left not long after. I noticed very similar behaviors between the two people with depression I had in my team even though they were completely different otherwise. I still meet them occasionally for a beer and I really like them on personal level but they weren't good employees even though I did everything I could (I think?) to make their working conditions... good? (sorry couldn't find better English word). Flexible working hours, decision if they want smaller or bigger tasks, regular meetings, etc.
JCharante 5y ago
Maybe it's different, but I've known people for a decade without ever seeing their face. Just communicating through text, text to speech software, or through VOIP while playing games. You can build deep connections and know their voices very well to hear when things are off. Of course at work I've seen people's faces but as someone who grew up online, only voice comms seems normal too.
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scarface74 5y ago
If a company cares about their employees getting to know each other - and they should - and they are distributed, they should budget for travel for them to meet in a central place - not withstanding a worldwide pandemic. No, cameras and “virtual happy hours” don’t cut it. I was hired remotely 6/2020 and the rest of my division is remote. I didn’t meet any of my coworkers until 9/2022. I didn’t meet most of my teammates until even later (long story, there is distinction). But this was completely due to Covid not company culture. It’s made a world of difference. My manager just said that if any of us feel that we need to get together for a few days, he has no problem with us meeting at any of the corporate offices around the US, just give him a heads up.
- supertofu 5y ago
  Absolutely. Remote companies need to invest in team get-togethers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

user_7832 5y ago

I was also surprised by the complete absence of face to face interaction. It seems very odd; though I hope it is not something that the author ends up regretting as well. Mental health needs to be talked about much more and de-stigmatized.

ENGNR 5y ago

I don't know, would it be more awkward for management to force you to turn on your webcam? I think the lack of face to face and the free language of this post shows some empathy. Maybe they could/should have arranged an in person trip sooner than that or something

teknopaul 5y ago
+1 I hate cameras, and pushing social media was a source of mental health issues for me. Lost a couple of colleagues recently, who I had never seen, I don't think cameras would have helped. Especially not when mourning loss. Face to face meetings are imperative, but not câmeras. Plenty of people are camera shy but just fine over dinner or a swift pint. Can't understate the importance of breaking bread.
gkop 5y ago
+1 to that would be awkward, and post shows some empathy A strong manager of course would not mandate micro behaviors like webcam use. A strong manager perhaps might 1) give space for the team to develop their own norms, 2) subtly nudge those norms with intention to test a hypothesis, gauge the result, and iterate and 3) once healthy norms have developed, take steps to formalize them (while taking care to maintain space for healthy dissent).
bodge5000 5y ago
Seems like a bigger managerial problem to disregard employees personal reasons for why they make not want to turn their cam on in the name of an easier measure if anything.

asyncscrum 5y ago

Am OP, can speak to the lack of cameras. We actually crafted our process in the Microsoft Lync era. Video was brutal. Also because of the diverse accents (Vietnamese, Portuguese, Russian, Scottish) it was easier to 'listen' without distraction. Obviously if you were starting today, cameras would be on. As you pointed out, probably a mistake.

Philip-J-Fry 5y ago
I feel like it's much easier to understand what someone is saying when you can see their face and mouth than if it's just audio.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Same here. Seeing their lips move often provides just enough additional information for me to correctly guess their words.
  - cfcosta 5y ago
    Nowadays, with high definition and close to no perceivable latency. Early video chat was so bad that having the video on was more distracting than helpful.
  - darkerside 5y ago
    I can see this not being the case with international latency causing lag between audio and video
supertofu 5y ago
I'm so very sorry for Pete's suffering and the loss to you and your team. I hope I didn't imply that "cameras are required for distributed teams!!" I don't agree with that and you're right that it's super impractical a lot of the time. I do hope to suggest that in-person team-building shouldn't be overlooked for the success and well-being of distributed teams.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

busterarm 5y ago

You'd be surprised how normal this is, historically, among remote-first companies (pre-pandemic). A decade or so ago, I worked at a remote-only company with 1600 employees and we never cammed up. We had a large number of employees with serious medical conditions or other personal issues that prevented them from holding down normal jobs and really appreciated not having to go on video.

notamy 5y ago
> We had a large number of employees with serious medical conditions or other personal issues that prevented them from holding down normal jobs and really appreciated not having to go on video. This is the reason I treasure my current company. The work I do works around my disability perfectly, they don't demand I have video on, they're very understanding of my health issues, ... I got seriously lucky and hope I don't have to leave this position for a long time.
- leaflets2 5y ago
  Can I ask, what's the disability? When a company wants a video meeting, what are, to you, better ways to say "please join the meeting with video, but if you have a disability that makes you not want to use video, that's totally fine"? I hope you're doing ok in spite of the disability
  - notamy 5y ago
    > Can I ask, what's the disability? I would rather not specify, as it is quite personal. Suffice to say that I'm very affected physically and mentally day-to-day, so I'm typically unable to put effort into my appearance. > When a company wants a video meeting, what are, to you, better ways to say "please join the meeting with video, but if you have a disability that makes you not want to use video, that's totally fine"? I'm unsure how to best communicate that; the only thing I can think of is to just state up-front that video is not required. I typically don't have issue with just never turning on a webcam.
    - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

hohoemi8 5y ago

I'm probably a minority but I don't care about my company or coworkers or building relationships. I'm just here to do a job to make money. As soon as I find a better offer I will happily quit. So being forced to use a camera to attend unnecessary meetings is just annoying to me.

supertofu 5y ago
For a long time I was like this too -- until I arrived at my current job. My dev coworkers are good friends, and I care immensely about their well-being.

robertlagrant 5y ago

> but to have gone 7 years without ever seeing your colleague's face seems, in my opinion, a symptom of a big managerial problem. Video calling is still a relatively recent thing. It will become more unusual not to have video calls, but the past is less likely to have had it, not more.

supernovae 5y ago

Depression is something we never talk about and don’t treat as a health concern. My daughter attempted suicide and it wasn’t for any reasons I could relate to. That was a hard lesson for me. What i did learn is that depression is taboo, therapy isn’t talked about openly, insurance doesn’t cover therapy well and there aren’t enough therapists in existence that the burden of depression seems to heavy. It’s not because we didn’t turn on cameras but because of systemic failures in our culture and a fascination with puritanical beliefs at all costs. Come to work depressed, come to work sick, work all day long, have no life, have no vacation, never mind the cost of living surpasses your ability to afford to live and now just living seems like the worst option.. replace work with school… not a single person here seems to be talking about how we’ve normalized suffering and as long as it’s always someone else, it’s their loneliness it’s their depression it’s their problem. we celebrate the people who would be psychopaths if we knew better.. it’s odd we have a society in place that doesn’t afford opportunity for all and not only doesn’t afford it, but is politically motivated to make sure people suffer for wanting to live it how they wished they could. the puritanical fetish at all cost - mostly because they suffered through it and so should you…

bckr 5y ago
> That was a hard lesson for me Let me tell you: you are a good parent merely for having this attitude.
kasztelan222 5y ago
Depression is hard. Much harder on the side of people having it, but being a manager and knowing people with that illness is also not easy. My company (Europe branch of big US corpo) was actually pretty good with handling that. They offered paid leave for one guy who wanted a intense therapy/camp. Unfortunately covid came and ended the program. The guy eventually left not long after. I noticed very similar behaviors between the two people with depression I had in my team even though they were completely different otherwise. I still meet them occasionally for a beer and I really like them on personal level but they weren't good employees even though I did everything I could (I think?) to make their working conditions... good? (sorry couldn't find better English word). Flexible working hours, decision if they want smaller or bigger tasks, regular meetings, etc.

JCharante 5y ago

Maybe it's different, but I've known people for a decade without ever seeing their face. Just communicating through text, text to speech software, or through VOIP while playing games. You can build deep connections and know their voices very well to hear when things are off. Of course at work I've seen people's faces but as someone who grew up online, only voice comms seems normal too.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

scarface74 5y ago

If a company cares about their employees getting to know each other - and they should - and they are distributed, they should budget for travel for them to meet in a central place - not withstanding a worldwide pandemic. No, cameras and “virtual happy hours” don’t cut it. I was hired remotely 6/2020 and the rest of my division is remote. I didn’t meet any of my coworkers until 9/2022. I didn’t meet most of my teammates until even later (long story, there is distinction). But this was completely due to Covid not company culture. It’s made a world of difference. My manager just said that if any of us feel that we need to get together for a few days, he has no problem with us meeting at any of the corporate offices around the US, just give him a heads up.

supertofu 5y ago
Absolutely. Remote companies need to invest in team get-togethers.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]