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Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

51 points by hardmaru 5y ago

ComradePhil 5y ago
dua2020 5y ago
- jjfksowpogg 5y ago
  I'm sorry you're confounded. The way I see it, neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Nazis are a hypothetical danger in the future, Russians are a real danger right now. It doesn't confound me that the mainstream media, which is mostly entertainment and little information anyway, simplifies and focuses only on the most relevant elements of a story. In fact, in this case it's a good thing they do, lest less informed people get confounded about how big an element the far-right is in this story.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline and the Russians seem to be intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. The city and port are literally in the way. This is as strategic as it goes.
      - unmole 5y ago
        > Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline A sea that Russia controls. > Intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. Which can be accomplished by surrounding Mariupol. A besieged city, cut off from any reinforcements and supply lines is hardly a strategic threat.
        inglor_cz 5y ago
        Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb. Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig. Ukraine as a whole isn't really a strategic threat to a country of size and power of Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.
        unmole 5y ago
        > Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb. I don't think anyone is really too bothered about Kaliningrad. Are they? It's not like Germany wants it back or anything. > Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to. Oh, I don't disagree with it this at all. But the only way Putin can back down while still saving face is by pretending that the invasion actually acomplished something. If you wanted to justify the invasion on the grounds of Denazificatiom, it helps to take over the base of the only unit that can tenably be called neo-Nazi.
        trasz 5y ago
        Germans won’t, but Poland might want it back. Russia needs to bleed out first though.
        acthrowthrow123 5y ago
        > Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig. Good point but I think 'unhappy' is understatement. Germany did ultimatum to Poland that they want to have a land corridor to Danzig. Poland said no and Germany invaded Poland later on. So there is a lot of similarity in current situation in a way that current Russia == old Germany
    - relativ575 5y ago
      > Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Which are those very few? And how are they embedded into national gendarmerie there? Why Russia don't wage war in those few, only Ukraine? maybe because they exist in Russia as well: https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535 https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-stat... Or a more thorough research: https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1514596/1/Wales.pdf https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1514596/1/Wales.pdf To quote: "There has been a large increase in nationalistic and xenophobic attitudes amongst Russian youth, and Russians in general, since the collapse of the Soviet Union. In addition, under Putin nationalism has become a conspicuous political and social force"
      - unmole 5y ago
        There are organised neo-Nazi militias in Russia? Neither of the articles you linked to suggest anything of the sort.
- samvega_ 5y ago
  It's part of the information warfare camapign of western media. News media challenging the narrative are being banned or threatened into submission.
  - seunosewa 5y ago
    Could you prove this? That would be a great article.
    - djbebs 5y ago
      Did you miss the banning of RT and sputnik?
    - samvega_ 5y ago
      ASBMilitary was banned from Twitter. They said their reporters in Ukraine were threatened due to the nature of their reporting, which challenged the Ukrainian narrative we're fed in the West. Of course all Russian-friendly media platforms are banned. The narrative they bring is dangerous to the false image we're creating here in the west. Social media platforms are waging war on "misinformation", removing content and opposing views en masse. This is not a secret. We're shielded against "propaganda", not aware we're steeped in propaganda. The funny thing, even western news media reported on the resurgence of the far right and the prevalence of Neo-nazism in Ukraine, as well as its connection with government post-euromaidan. Referencing these very articles gets you stamped as a Russian bot these days. The fact is that NATO countries are funding and militarizing neo-nazis in Ukraine in order to undermine Russia. And they're shielding them from bad press. Moreover, government forces (of which the neo-nazi militia is part of) has bombarded civilian areas of the seperatist regions for 8 years, and still do, which has killed about 14k civilians. There's complete silence about this injustice in the western press coverage of Ukraine. What's most concerning is how normalized it has become to hate Russians.
      - sph 5y ago
        You're just saying Western media is hiding the "facts" but not telling us which facts might these be. Do you mean the bullshit reasons Putin has told the Russian people to justify invading Ukraine? Is the West hiding that he really is there to denazify Ukraine? Please tell us what the West doesn't want us to know. Let it be clear, I am quite positive the Western intelligence is doing a massive work of propaganda and happy to be able to silence RT. But this doesn't justify and validate the bullshit story Putin has been telling the world to invade a sovereign country.
- stanito 5y ago
  Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions? The fact that there’s a nationalist movement in Ukraine should not be a surprise given the massacre in Feb 2014, annexation of Crimea, an 8-year war-by-proxy that followed, and now an outright invasion. Painting any desire at establishing a sense of unity and instilling pride as nazism is absurd.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions? What are these, alternative facts? The US Congress was troubled enough by the Azov Battalion that aid to them was expressly prohibited way back in 2018. Is the US Congress a Russian front too?
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Let me begin with the info that I am all for Ukraine and I hope Russia loses their war of aggression badly. Putin's regime is the closest that we have to the Third Reich and/or Stalin's USSR in Europe right now. But I still cannot help but notice how the Western sensibilities changed from "Punch a Nazi!" (in 2020, when most of those weren't even true Nazis) to "Let's not speak of those actual SS-symbol-sporting troops because they are fighting for the good cause now." Azov isn't representative of the entire Ukraine, no. That is Russian propaganda. It can be dissolved afterwards, yes. But they are on the far end of the far right, no mistake about that. Ukraine has a troubled history with its minorities, many of the guards in the extermination camps were Ukrainians, Polish minority was once targeted etc. People like Stepan Bandera should never be worshipped. If Ukraine is to join the EU in the future, Azov battalion must be disposed of, much like Irgun in early Israel was. Hopefully without any bloodshed, but their toying with SS symbols goes too far. Even Poland and the Czech Republic, quite staunch allies of Ukraine, wouldn't tolerate this kind of shit being carried openly in a fellow EU country once the war is over.
    - stanito 5y ago
- _kbh_ 5y ago
  Maybe Russia should focus a bit more on denazifying at home. The Wagner group and Roscosmos are both run by Neo Nazis / white supremacist yet Russia doesn’t seem to care about them.
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  Azov is one of the batallions there but your post is totally skewed. If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? Why should the western media focus on which troops fight on the Ukrainian side if we have a clear aggressor, the invading country of Russia. It is a bullshit narrative to say they are fighting Nazis. they are fighting Ukrainians, some of which may be Nazis, but so are some of the Russian troops. That you demand western media acknowledge the absurd and made up casus belli of denazification is simply crazy. It means you bought into the Russian propaganda, whether you know it or not.
  - dua2020 5y ago
    Unbiased media reporting can simply say 'the Russians claim' and there you go. America/NATO and Ukraine can claim what they want in the media and are quoted constantly. There is a lack of non-aligned third-party verification of anything in this conflict so it's the least the media can do. If you would like to see what putting arms in the hands of fundamentalists to fight for the US/NATOs side see Syria, Iraq, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Libya etc
  - licebmi__at__ 5y ago
    > If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? As a non white, I would definitely be worried about giving the KKK weapons and a blank card to use violence. Although I can imagine that white people might share my worries.
  - klibertp 5y ago
    > If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? Yes. The narrative weights more than actually winning in combat. Allowing Right Sector and Azov Battalion to work with the Army for the past 8 years is akin to willingly giving the guns and ammo to the Russians. I don't care what the very-far-right (or left) does inside the country, but using them in combat with another nation is bad, because they just might win. It's ok if you plan to use Russians to kill off these people, but it's risky. If some of them survive, they will be heroes. Patriots who bled for the country. They will be allowed to do just about anything for the next decade or two. I understand the need for soldiers. Very-far-X, for any X, are usually people who can and want to fight. Now, they got a chance to fight. And kill. And, in effect, validate their ideology and gain political power afterwards. Once Russians are expelled, the war ends, the unity in the face of a common enemy dissipates, and the Azov Battalion will be legitimized as national heroes, it will lead to conflict with current allies. Poland, most notably, won't accept it. Germany will also be very, very displeased. It's not worth it. People from Azov Battalion and similar organizations should never be allowed to fight. They should be in support, logistics, communication, work as medics, do just about anything other than fight, kill, and be killed. In the short-term using far right militia is a perfectly rational choice. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying that, in the long run, using extremists to fight with another nation is going to hurt more than help.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  Here's an interesting Reddit post from a IT worker in Ukraine regarding Azov: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ti35ls/ukrainian_thoughts_on_azov/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ti35ls/ukrainian_t... This is not meant to support or refute any part of this HN discussion, I just found it interesting and wanted to link it.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > Actual neo-nazis are hated here much more than anywhere elese since we hate their guts after being ocupied by nazis in WW2 and commies in USSR (almost everyone i know have parents or grandparents who suffered from either or both), so anyone being openly nazi is met with extreme prejudice here. What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine. And the whole Wolfsangel and Black Sun are not neo-Nazi symbols argument is the same as claiming the Confederate battle flag represents Southern heritage. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...
    - acthrowthrow123 5y ago
      > What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine. Where is it being celebrated? According to wiki on Stepan Bandera [1]: "In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.[20] A proposal to confer the award on Bandera was rejected by the Ukrainian parliament in August 2019.[21]". Also keep in mind it even though Bandera was was leader of OUN he was arrested by gestapo in 1941 and was in concentration camp between 1942-1944. Also from wikipedia: "According to Yaroslav Hrytsak, Bandera was not completely aware of events in Ukraine during his internment from the summer of 1941 and had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles" I don't think ukrainians also deny massacres of Poles in volhynia - the dispute was if it can be recognized as genocide. On the other hand Poles claims genocide about Katyn massacre [2] by Russsia that Russian denies and try to downplay. The Katyn massacre was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD. Edit: Also keep in mind Poles don't keep any grudge to Ukrainians for massacre in Volhyn - something that happened 80 years ago. They are happily helping a lot currently 1.5m ukraininans who were running away from the war. Also no Poles even think about taking back Lviv just because a long time ago it was a Polish city. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

51 points by hardmaru 5y ago

ComradePhil 5y ago

dua2020 5y ago

jjfksowpogg 5y ago
I'm sorry you're confounded. The way I see it, neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Nazis are a hypothetical danger in the future, Russians are a real danger right now. It doesn't confound me that the mainstream media, which is mostly entertainment and little information anyway, simplifies and focuses only on the most relevant elements of a story. In fact, in this case it's a good thing they do, lest less informed people get confounded about how big an element the far-right is in this story.
- unmole 5y ago
  > neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline and the Russians seem to be intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. The city and port are literally in the way. This is as strategic as it goes.
    - unmole 5y ago
      > Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline A sea that Russia controls. > Intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. Which can be accomplished by surrounding Mariupol. A besieged city, cut off from any reinforcements and supply lines is hardly a strategic threat.
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb. Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig. Ukraine as a whole isn't really a strategic threat to a country of size and power of Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.
        unmole 5y ago
        > Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb. I don't think anyone is really too bothered about Kaliningrad. Are they? It's not like Germany wants it back or anything. > Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to. Oh, I don't disagree with it this at all. But the only way Putin can back down while still saving face is by pretending that the invasion actually acomplished something. If you wanted to justify the invasion on the grounds of Denazificatiom, it helps to take over the base of the only unit that can tenably be called neo-Nazi.
        trasz 5y ago
        Germans won’t, but Poland might want it back. Russia needs to bleed out first though.
        acthrowthrow123 5y ago
        > Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig. Good point but I think 'unhappy' is understatement. Germany did ultimatum to Poland that they want to have a land corridor to Danzig. Poland said no and Germany invaded Poland later on. So there is a lot of similarity in current situation in a way that current Russia == old Germany
  - relativ575 5y ago
    > Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Which are those very few? And how are they embedded into national gendarmerie there? Why Russia don't wage war in those few, only Ukraine? maybe because they exist in Russia as well: https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535 https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-stat... Or a more thorough research: https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1514596/1/Wales.pdf https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1514596/1/Wales.pdf To quote: "There has been a large increase in nationalistic and xenophobic attitudes amongst Russian youth, and Russians in general, since the collapse of the Soviet Union. In addition, under Putin nationalism has become a conspicuous political and social force"
    - unmole 5y ago
      There are organised neo-Nazi militias in Russia? Neither of the articles you linked to suggest anything of the sort.
samvega_ 5y ago
It's part of the information warfare camapign of western media. News media challenging the narrative are being banned or threatened into submission.
- seunosewa 5y ago
  Could you prove this? That would be a great article.
  - djbebs 5y ago
    Did you miss the banning of RT and sputnik?
  - samvega_ 5y ago
    ASBMilitary was banned from Twitter. They said their reporters in Ukraine were threatened due to the nature of their reporting, which challenged the Ukrainian narrative we're fed in the West. Of course all Russian-friendly media platforms are banned. The narrative they bring is dangerous to the false image we're creating here in the west. Social media platforms are waging war on "misinformation", removing content and opposing views en masse. This is not a secret. We're shielded against "propaganda", not aware we're steeped in propaganda. The funny thing, even western news media reported on the resurgence of the far right and the prevalence of Neo-nazism in Ukraine, as well as its connection with government post-euromaidan. Referencing these very articles gets you stamped as a Russian bot these days. The fact is that NATO countries are funding and militarizing neo-nazis in Ukraine in order to undermine Russia. And they're shielding them from bad press. Moreover, government forces (of which the neo-nazi militia is part of) has bombarded civilian areas of the seperatist regions for 8 years, and still do, which has killed about 14k civilians. There's complete silence about this injustice in the western press coverage of Ukraine. What's most concerning is how normalized it has become to hate Russians.
    - sph 5y ago
      You're just saying Western media is hiding the "facts" but not telling us which facts might these be. Do you mean the bullshit reasons Putin has told the Russian people to justify invading Ukraine? Is the West hiding that he really is there to denazify Ukraine? Please tell us what the West doesn't want us to know. Let it be clear, I am quite positive the Western intelligence is doing a massive work of propaganda and happy to be able to silence RT. But this doesn't justify and validate the bullshit story Putin has been telling the world to invade a sovereign country.
stanito 5y ago
Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions? The fact that there’s a nationalist movement in Ukraine should not be a surprise given the massacre in Feb 2014, annexation of Crimea, an 8-year war-by-proxy that followed, and now an outright invasion. Painting any desire at establishing a sense of unity and instilling pride as nazism is absurd.
- unmole 5y ago
  > Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions? What are these, alternative facts? The US Congress was troubled enough by the Azov Battalion that aid to them was expressly prohibited way back in 2018. Is the US Congress a Russian front too?
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Let me begin with the info that I am all for Ukraine and I hope Russia loses their war of aggression badly. Putin's regime is the closest that we have to the Third Reich and/or Stalin's USSR in Europe right now. But I still cannot help but notice how the Western sensibilities changed from "Punch a Nazi!" (in 2020, when most of those weren't even true Nazis) to "Let's not speak of those actual SS-symbol-sporting troops because they are fighting for the good cause now." Azov isn't representative of the entire Ukraine, no. That is Russian propaganda. It can be dissolved afterwards, yes. But they are on the far end of the far right, no mistake about that. Ukraine has a troubled history with its minorities, many of the guards in the extermination camps were Ukrainians, Polish minority was once targeted etc. People like Stepan Bandera should never be worshipped. If Ukraine is to join the EU in the future, Azov battalion must be disposed of, much like Irgun in early Israel was. Hopefully without any bloodshed, but their toying with SS symbols goes too far. Even Poland and the Czech Republic, quite staunch allies of Ukraine, wouldn't tolerate this kind of shit being carried openly in a fellow EU country once the war is over.
  - stanito 5y ago
_kbh_ 5y ago
Maybe Russia should focus a bit more on denazifying at home. The Wagner group and Roscosmos are both run by Neo Nazis / white supremacist yet Russia doesn’t seem to care about them.
estaseuropano 5y ago
Azov is one of the batallions there but your post is totally skewed. If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? Why should the western media focus on which troops fight on the Ukrainian side if we have a clear aggressor, the invading country of Russia. It is a bullshit narrative to say they are fighting Nazis. they are fighting Ukrainians, some of which may be Nazis, but so are some of the Russian troops. That you demand western media acknowledge the absurd and made up casus belli of denazification is simply crazy. It means you bought into the Russian propaganda, whether you know it or not.
- dua2020 5y ago
  Unbiased media reporting can simply say 'the Russians claim' and there you go. America/NATO and Ukraine can claim what they want in the media and are quoted constantly. There is a lack of non-aligned third-party verification of anything in this conflict so it's the least the media can do. If you would like to see what putting arms in the hands of fundamentalists to fight for the US/NATOs side see Syria, Iraq, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Libya etc
- licebmi__at__ 5y ago
  > If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? As a non white, I would definitely be worried about giving the KKK weapons and a blank card to use violence. Although I can imagine that white people might share my worries.
- klibertp 5y ago
  > If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? Yes. The narrative weights more than actually winning in combat. Allowing Right Sector and Azov Battalion to work with the Army for the past 8 years is akin to willingly giving the guns and ammo to the Russians. I don't care what the very-far-right (or left) does inside the country, but using them in combat with another nation is bad, because they just might win. It's ok if you plan to use Russians to kill off these people, but it's risky. If some of them survive, they will be heroes. Patriots who bled for the country. They will be allowed to do just about anything for the next decade or two. I understand the need for soldiers. Very-far-X, for any X, are usually people who can and want to fight. Now, they got a chance to fight. And kill. And, in effect, validate their ideology and gain political power afterwards. Once Russians are expelled, the war ends, the unity in the face of a common enemy dissipates, and the Azov Battalion will be legitimized as national heroes, it will lead to conflict with current allies. Poland, most notably, won't accept it. Germany will also be very, very displeased. It's not worth it. People from Azov Battalion and similar organizations should never be allowed to fight. They should be in support, logistics, communication, work as medics, do just about anything other than fight, kill, and be killed. In the short-term using far right militia is a perfectly rational choice. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying that, in the long run, using extremists to fight with another nation is going to hurt more than help.
Buttons840 5y ago
Here's an interesting Reddit post from a IT worker in Ukraine regarding Azov: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ti35ls/ukrainian_thoughts_on_azov/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ti35ls/ukrainian_t... This is not meant to support or refute any part of this HN discussion, I just found it interesting and wanted to link it.
- unmole 5y ago
  > Actual neo-nazis are hated here much more than anywhere elese since we hate their guts after being ocupied by nazis in WW2 and commies in USSR (almost everyone i know have parents or grandparents who suffered from either or both), so anyone being openly nazi is met with extreme prejudice here. What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine. And the whole Wolfsangel and Black Sun are not neo-Nazi symbols argument is the same as claiming the Confederate battle flag represents Southern heritage. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...
  - acthrowthrow123 5y ago
    > What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine. Where is it being celebrated? According to wiki on Stepan Bandera [1]: "In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.[20] A proposal to confer the award on Bandera was rejected by the Ukrainian parliament in August 2019.[21]". Also keep in mind it even though Bandera was was leader of OUN he was arrested by gestapo in 1941 and was in concentration camp between 1942-1944. Also from wikipedia: "According to Yaroslav Hrytsak, Bandera was not completely aware of events in Ukraine during his internment from the summer of 1941 and had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles" I don't think ukrainians also deny massacres of Poles in volhynia - the dispute was if it can be recognized as genocide. On the other hand Poles claims genocide about Katyn massacre [2] by Russsia that Russian denies and try to downplay. The Katyn massacre was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD. Edit: Also keep in mind Poles don't keep any grudge to Ukrainians for massacre in Volhyn - something that happened 80 years ago. They are happily helping a lot currently 1.5m ukraininans who were running away from the war. Also no Poles even think about taking back Lviv just because a long time ago it was a Polish city. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre