3 ms·

It's an old study, but correlation doesn't prove causation. It turns out that people who have pore hand/grip strength are more likely to fall, or have a type of

by redmen 5y ago

It's an old study, but correlation doesn't prove causation. It turns out that people who have pore hand/grip strength are more likely to fall, or have a type of life that leads to higher chance of death. This is a very complicated cause/effect to figure out, even for top-class physical therapists. Also possible that if you have good grip strength then you have good muscular balance and innervation, vascularity, and motor neuron balance (extensor/flexor), which possibly leads to better overall health, including heart health. Honestly, I have no idea. But that's the point. Neither do experts who spend decades in this field. It's far too complex to study through these types of lenses. This is often why clinical practice still does better than science in this field. It's complicated as hell and many traditional scientists think they can study the musculoskeletal system this way, when the top doctors learn most of their skills through clinical trial-and-error. Still in 2022.

redmen 5y ago
Just to attempt to be thorough, and reiterate that honestly I don't know the answer, but good grip strength may be something comes from good overall muscular and nervous system health, not the other way around. It interests me how far we have come in technology, but how little we know how to apply it to certain kinds of medicine. Just as an anecdote, I have been spending thousands of hours in physical therapy, and have visited doctors all over. One thing I have learned is that many great doctors used to read tonnes of research papers early in their career, but over time gravitated more towards their clinical experience in building their tree of knowledge. From what I have heard, the science is just too vague and difficult in this field and so as tempting as it is to want to apply the scientific framework around this field (I'm talking specifically about physical therapy here, not necessarily other areas of medicine where I know far less about), it ends up being more effective to build up ones intuition off of a strong clinical practice and then to look at the science afterwards in order to calibrate and filter through those experiences. A bit of a tangent, but something I also find to be interesting is how poor the feedback mechanisms are in a lot of medicine. Most patients don't follow their prescribed homework, and many surgeons don't even get to see the long-term outcomes of their patients' surgery. Or when they do they are measuring some variables that don't give enough of an overall view of the person's body or overall health. Anyways, I'm done rambling for now :P. I hope we can curtail the upcoming health crisis we are going to have with our and our childrens' postures and poor body mechanics.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "Most patients don't follow their prescribed homework, and many surgeons don't even get to see the long-term outcomes of their patients' surgery." I had some problems after sports accidents and after an odysee to different surgeons and co. and an operation, I came to the conclusion, that the lowly, but very experienced physical therapists, offered the best advice for me. Because they actually work closely with the patients in the long run and see what works. But since they are not academics, it seems their opinions are usually not very well regarded and do not move up the chain (at least here in germany, but I can imagine it is the same all around the world).
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    To be frank, most doctors don't perform the same exercise that they recommend to their patients themselves. Leading by example should be a thing. I am now in care of a fit doctor who, though being over 50, is slim and obviously active. It is a huge difference from my previous doctor who was visibly overweight even though 10 years younger than me, and from the yet previous doctor who tipped the scale at at least 350 pounds. (That one died of Covid after spending 6 weeks in the ICU. Wasn't yet sixty.) If the fit doctor recommends me something from her own experience (in her case, the Sun Salutation), I will know that it works.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  " good grip strength may be something comes from good overall muscular and nervous system health" There probably is a circular relationship. Enough physical activity leads to better cardovascular health and stronger muscles. Those lead to good grip strength, which is just the best measurable element of overall physical strength. Stronger people have more capacity for exercise and will engage in more physical activity, which leads to better health etc. One day, some equilibrium is reached, but this equilibrium is much better than in sedentary people. This equilibrium lowers your risk of heart disease, the worst of modern age killers. Also, if you spend time outdoors (and a lot of physical activity is done outdoors in favorable climates), your immune system gets training, too. And immune system is what seems to be protecting us from cancer, the second worst of modern age killers.
deltaonefour 5y ago
>This is a very complicated cause/effect to figure out, even for top-class physical therapists. Have you ever wondered what kind of experiment is needed to be run in order to verify causation? I see people say "correlation does not equal causation." And they never wonder, well what exactly is causation and how can science attempt to verify it at all? One person even told me that causation is impossible to verify. He's right on a technical level. If you want to be very pedantic science cannot prove anything to be true. But pedantry aside experimental methods to "prove" causation are very real and used extensively in the medical industry. All the medicine you put in your body (including the covid vaccine) is verified to be effective from a causative standpoint. That being said the experiment to test for whether or not hand/grip and strength causatively effects life span is quite trivial in terms of planning out what has to be done. The study could take a while but we've done other studies that have lasted longer and are far more complicated. Simply select a random group of people and put half of them on a daily plan to increase grip strength. If the half that was put on a daily plan generally lives longer than the other half of people who weren't put on a plan you have verified causation. The key to proving causation is to have the experimenters hand controlling the causative factor rather than observing it. This technique can (and often is) used to produce raw science directly from clinical practice. The term for this is called "clinical trials"
- redmen 5y ago
  Not necessarily. It's possible that the group that works on increasing their grip strength will also become healthier overall in other ways. The grip strength exercises might motivate them to do other things that are good for them, body their mood, etc.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    I am describing the technical way of verifying causation. This is how it's done in formal science. I'm not making this stuff up. >The grip strength exercises might motivate them to do other things that are good for them, body their mood, etc. Grip strength is still the causative factor here. It "causes" people to be motivated which in turn causes people to live longer. It literally supports the articles main point. People are saying that correlation does not equal causation and that training for grip strength will not increase your lifespan. However if the scenario you describe above is true. Then training for grip strength DOES increase your lifespan. Causation verified. The article is then completely correct. Think about it. I get where you're coming from though. Being born has a causative association with having a longer life span than not being born. The connection is technically causative but you want to find a more direct source that is lower on the chain of causation.

by redmen 5y ago

redmen 5y ago

Just to attempt to be thorough, and reiterate that honestly I don't know the answer, but good grip strength may be something comes from good overall muscular and nervous system health, not the other way around. It interests me how far we have come in technology, but how little we know how to apply it to certain kinds of medicine. Just as an anecdote, I have been spending thousands of hours in physical therapy, and have visited doctors all over. One thing I have learned is that many great doctors used to read tonnes of research papers early in their career, but over time gravitated more towards their clinical experience in building their tree of knowledge. From what I have heard, the science is just too vague and difficult in this field and so as tempting as it is to want to apply the scientific framework around this field (I'm talking specifically about physical therapy here, not necessarily other areas of medicine where I know far less about), it ends up being more effective to build up ones intuition off of a strong clinical practice and then to look at the science afterwards in order to calibrate and filter through those experiences. A bit of a tangent, but something I also find to be interesting is how poor the feedback mechanisms are in a lot of medicine. Most patients don't follow their prescribed homework, and many surgeons don't even get to see the long-term outcomes of their patients' surgery. Or when they do they are measuring some variables that don't give enough of an overall view of the person's body or overall health. Anyways, I'm done rambling for now :P. I hope we can curtail the upcoming health crisis we are going to have with our and our childrens' postures and poor body mechanics.

hutzlibu 5y ago
"Most patients don't follow their prescribed homework, and many surgeons don't even get to see the long-term outcomes of their patients' surgery." I had some problems after sports accidents and after an odysee to different surgeons and co. and an operation, I came to the conclusion, that the lowly, but very experienced physical therapists, offered the best advice for me. Because they actually work closely with the patients in the long run and see what works. But since they are not academics, it seems their opinions are usually not very well regarded and do not move up the chain (at least here in germany, but I can imagine it is the same all around the world).
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  To be frank, most doctors don't perform the same exercise that they recommend to their patients themselves. Leading by example should be a thing. I am now in care of a fit doctor who, though being over 50, is slim and obviously active. It is a huge difference from my previous doctor who was visibly overweight even though 10 years younger than me, and from the yet previous doctor who tipped the scale at at least 350 pounds. (That one died of Covid after spending 6 weeks in the ICU. Wasn't yet sixty.) If the fit doctor recommends me something from her own experience (in her case, the Sun Salutation), I will know that it works.
inglor_cz 5y ago
" good grip strength may be something comes from good overall muscular and nervous system health" There probably is a circular relationship. Enough physical activity leads to better cardovascular health and stronger muscles. Those lead to good grip strength, which is just the best measurable element of overall physical strength. Stronger people have more capacity for exercise and will engage in more physical activity, which leads to better health etc. One day, some equilibrium is reached, but this equilibrium is much better than in sedentary people. This equilibrium lowers your risk of heart disease, the worst of modern age killers. Also, if you spend time outdoors (and a lot of physical activity is done outdoors in favorable climates), your immune system gets training, too. And immune system is what seems to be protecting us from cancer, the second worst of modern age killers.

deltaonefour 5y ago

>This is a very complicated cause/effect to figure out, even for top-class physical therapists. Have you ever wondered what kind of experiment is needed to be run in order to verify causation? I see people say "correlation does not equal causation." And they never wonder, well what exactly is causation and how can science attempt to verify it at all? One person even told me that causation is impossible to verify. He's right on a technical level. If you want to be very pedantic science cannot prove anything to be true. But pedantry aside experimental methods to "prove" causation are very real and used extensively in the medical industry. All the medicine you put in your body (including the covid vaccine) is verified to be effective from a causative standpoint. That being said the experiment to test for whether or not hand/grip and strength causatively effects life span is quite trivial in terms of planning out what has to be done. The study could take a while but we've done other studies that have lasted longer and are far more complicated. Simply select a random group of people and put half of them on a daily plan to increase grip strength. If the half that was put on a daily plan generally lives longer than the other half of people who weren't put on a plan you have verified causation. The key to proving causation is to have the experimenters hand controlling the causative factor rather than observing it. This technique can (and often is) used to produce raw science directly from clinical practice. The term for this is called "clinical trials"

redmen 5y ago
Not necessarily. It's possible that the group that works on increasing their grip strength will also become healthier overall in other ways. The grip strength exercises might motivate them to do other things that are good for them, body their mood, etc.
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  I am describing the technical way of verifying causation. This is how it's done in formal science. I'm not making this stuff up. >The grip strength exercises might motivate them to do other things that are good for them, body their mood, etc. Grip strength is still the causative factor here. It "causes" people to be motivated which in turn causes people to live longer. It literally supports the articles main point. People are saying that correlation does not equal causation and that training for grip strength will not increase your lifespan. However if the scenario you describe above is true. Then training for grip strength DOES increase your lifespan. Causation verified. The article is then completely correct. Think about it. I get where you're coming from though. Being born has a causative association with having a longer life span than not being born. The connection is technically causative but you want to find a more direct source that is lower on the chain of causation.