9 ms·
ᐊᐣᑕᔚᐣᐦᐃ ᐁᐏᒋᑭᐍ ᐅᑕᐱᓇᒪᐣ ᓂᒪᒪ ᐅᑎᔑᑭᔑᐍᐏᐣ ᒷᔦ ᐃᐡᑿᓭᐠ
- trinovantes 5y agoI'm surprised obscure languages like Oji-Cree have unicodes As more human languages go extinct, I wonder if people in the future will forget where some unicodes come from and if they will try to repurpose some codes
- coverup 5y ago¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- kej 5y agoThey added a Linear A block despite the language still being undeciphered, so not having living speakers is not a barrier to being in Unicode.
- sterlind 5y agoit's one thing Unicode does well. I haven't come across a living natural language, that's not represented in Unicode, but some extinct languages are too. there's hieroglyphics (classic and demotic), Sumerian, etc. Mayan and Aztec logosyllabary don't seem to be officially allocated yet, but there's a proposed range for them.
- mFixman 5y agoWe even have Unicode codepoints for alphabets like Shavian or Deseret which were never in widespread use but currently exist as linguistic curiosities.
- OJFord 5y agoI suppose that's the point, it's not just Unicode being quirky, imagine trying to publish a paper on language X and its unique, dead, script. It'd be harder now in the 21st century without it being in Unicode than it would've been in the early 20th (without Unicode existing at all). What would you do? Append an image and refer to the characters numerically?
- zamadatix 5y agoProbably, preferably as a vector file, and then reference it with latex (or whatever you're typesetting your paper with) so it shows up as part of the rendered document. I.e. same way you include non Unicode items in your paper.
- NathanielLovin 5y agoThere's ~130 known unencoded scripts, about 70 historical and 60 modern (some of which are extinct, most of which just don't have that many users). Most of these have proposed ranges, but aren't actually in unicode yet. See https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/sei/index.html https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/sei/index.html, which is the main group working to get the rest finished.
- zamadatix 5y agoI'm trying to think of an example of a standard where the fixed sized index got full but re-use was a viable long term solution instead of either extension or complete replacement. It seems if that point gets hit the amount of effort to reuse isn't worth the short amount of time it gains. In IPv4 for example we reached the second level of NAT before anyone even tried to start using 0/8 which was set aside simply to not be used not even assigned and forgotten.
- kettro 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Aboriginal_syllabics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Aboriginal_syllabics We have unicode for Sumerian, so I don't think that will ever happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language
- mbg721 5y agoThat's just for debugging Hammurabi's code.
- junon 5y agoThis language looks cool as hell. Is it difficult to learn?
- sterlind 5y agoextremely so, iirc. both because of the complex agglutinative and polysynthetic grammar, and the dearth of teaching material.
- junon 5y agoI don't know any of those words :D
- Rendello 5y agoThe basic jist is that Ojibwe (and many American languages) have very long, complex words that are formed in a much different way to English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxARj07jFp0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxARj07jFp0
- junon 5y agoI see, thanks for the info, lots to read up on!
- Rendello 5y agoThe writing system (Syllabics) is quite simple [1]. The languages that use the writing systems, like Inuktitut, Cree, Ojibwe, and Oji-Cree (aka Severn Ojibwe; the language in the article) are not related to English and are difficult to find comprehensive resources for online. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4hI_METac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4hI_METac
- nkurz 5y agoFor those less comfortable reading Oji-Cree, CBC has helpfully published a translation in English: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/first-person-rochelle-bragg-reclaiming-language-1.6371587 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/first-person-roch...
- adamrmcd 5y agoThe CBC has never done this before: posted a complete article in an indigenous language on the main English site. An awesome read that brings home the point of the people trying to keep their native languages alive.
- eadmund 5y agoDoes an article in a non-English language belong on a site for an English-speaking audience? Just seems weird, like having an article about football in a basketry journal. On a technical level, of course, it’s awesome that Unicode enables this kind of thing.
- JaimeThompson 5y agoYes as it introduces a larger audience to the language.
- jmopp 5y agoIn this case, I would argue there isn't a problem with it - as there is an English translation available and the article itself is about the author learning her heritage language.
- vmception 5y agoI like the representation pushes Canada achieves with some of their pre-colonial communities There is almost no analog in the US Its so different, from the bad things to the good things, but just right there up north Really fascinating and inspiring for me about how much is possible given that there are so many cultures here that have almost nothing to do with each other, just grouped together as “indigenous”
- twic 5y agoWow, Go generics really have got complicated.
- Koshkin 5y agoYou can stick to ASCII if you wish.
- koenigdavidmj 5y agoThere was actually a pre processor that used the characters ᐸ and ᐳ as part of faked generics.
- pcthrowaway 5y agoI'm pretty sure that was the joke.
- krapp 5y agoI assumed it was APL at first.
- armagon 5y agoInteresting. I've been looking up at setting up Internet-in-a-box for a what-if scenario (ex. what if people can charge their phones but have no internet access), and am amazed that you can download wikipedia in well over a hundred languages. I wondered, after getting the key languages spoken here (English being #1 by far) about Blackfoot, but see that there is no version of Wikipedia in that language. I wonder if they have any first nations languages (and yes, I understand that it depends on volunteers writing the articles in those languages, and that they almost certainly speak English better).
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Rendello 5y agoThere is no Ojibwe Wikipedia [1], but there is one in the incubator [2]. There are also small versions for Cree (which is in the same family) [3], and Inuktitut [4], both of which use the syllabic script. 1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias 2. https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/Wp/ojb/ https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/Wp/... 3. https://cr.wikipedia.org/ https://cr.wikipedia.org/ 4. https://iu.wikipedia.org/ https://iu.wikipedia.org/
- __s 5y agoAn aunt who teaches Ojibwe was showing me how the alphabet uses symmetries for its phoenetics https://www.kercstore.com/product-page/ojibwe-syllabic-chart-eastern-finals-with-phonetics https://www.kercstore.com/product-page/ojibwe-syllabic-chart...
- Rendello 5y agoI'm interested in learning Ojibwe and I've been planning to look into a tutor soon. If you don't mind me asking, how does your aunt teach? Does she work online or locally? Is she teaching only as a volunteer or professionally?
- klyrs 5y agoThat's so beautiful. I especially love how syllables are encoded as single symbols. Phonetic writing systems are amazing and this one is especially neat. But... as a parent of a kid with dyslexia... I can't imagine teaching him this alphabet: he'd be shooting in the dark on vowel choices. After many months of deliberate effort, he can distinguish d/b from p/q but within those groups, he's completely lost. Sometimes, I've learned, beauty of symmetry comes at a cost. One symbol im the title stands out: ᐦ appears to be missing from that chart -- any chance you know what's going on there?
- __s 5y agoLooked up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe_writing_systems#Ojibwe_syllabics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe_writing_systems#Ojibw... > A glottal stop or /h/ preceding a vowel is optionally written with a separate character ⟨ᐦ⟩, as in ᐱᒪᑕᐦᐁ pimaatahe 'is skating'
- kderbyma 5y agoI feel like articles like this could really benefit from a translated reader function. allowing one to simultaneously swap between languages and get phrases
- willcipriano 5y agoI for one welcome our alien overlords and want to let them know that I am available if they require any information on humanities weaknesses.
- torstenvl 5y agoI feel like there's a deep deep tragedy in the loss not just of individual languages, but of entire language families. While it's sad that a language like Auvergnat will likely die in a generation or two, it almost feels like less of a loss because other Langue d'Oc languages will likely survive (e.g., Gascon probably). But the northern (a)nishn[aabe|abe|ini]m(o)w[e|i]n languages (Ojibwe, Oji-Cree, Odawa, Chippewa, etc.) are so much more endangered, have so little learning material, and are fragmented, making a concerted effort to save any one of them almost doomed to failure, let alone all of them. I'm not saying linguistic ethnicide is acceptable, just that linguistic genocide is so so much more heartbreaking. An entire line of peoples will lose their connection to their ancestors in just a generation or two. My step-father was Odawa. He never spoke it. But I try to study it some, to honor his memory. The Nishnaabemwin Reference Grammar and Odawa Language and Legends book are... helpful but hardly sufficient.
- meristohm 5y agoI feel similarly. I have no indigenous Turtle-Islander roots, as far as I know, except some cultural absorption having grown up fairly open-minded in northern Minnesota. I've been practicing the animate and inanimate Anishinaabemowin (Ojibwe) color-names with my child who really likes colors. I like that such distinction exists, and I'm curious what else is out there in other languages that will help me experience existence in healthier, richer ways. "In living color", if you will. There are more and more children's books in English that also include earlier languages. One of our favorites is On the Trapline, by David Robertson and Julie Flett [0]. From listening to The Blindboy Podcast I'm interested in learning some Gaeilge (Irish Gaelic) for the same reasons. [0] library reference: https://www.worldcat.org/title/on-the-trapline/ https://www.worldcat.org/title/on-the-trapline/
- robocat 5y agoThere is a recording “Rochelle Bragg speaks Oji-Cree”. I can hear she speaks it with a massive USA accent, even though I don’t know squat about Oji-Cree. It is weird how we can hear an accent even without knowing anything about a language.
- nkurz 5y agoYou have a good point about carry-over accents, but since she's Canadian she might take offense that you think her accent is clearly from the USA: "Rochelle Wabunn Bragg is a band member of Muskrat Dam First Nation and currently lives in Mississauga, Ont., with her family." As an American, it's true that if I heard her recording without context I'd probably guess she's from Michigan or Minnesota, but I could convince myself to go with urban Ontario if I thought about it more. Unless you are making a deeper point about the lack of a distinct Canadian identity?
- robocat 5y agoThanks for the correction. I’m from New Zealand so (a) I don’t always recognise the difference, and (b) I know how it feels to be called the wrong nationality (when travelling, I sometimes get asked if I am Australian - grrrrr!)
- Beltalowda 5y agoWait, isn't New Zealand a province of Australia? runs
- timonoko 5y ago"Invented by white christian missionary James Evans around 1840". There seems to be no historical background or linguistic reason whatsoever? Except there is this one reason: when English- (and French) -speakers made the phonetic writing system for Latin alphabeth, it became batshit crazy and quite unreadable.
- timonoko 5y agoI once tried to understand the Haida Gwaii writing system. I learned that Finnish/German "ä"-sound was written as "aa" and double "aa"- sound was written as "a'a" and quite normal-sounding consonants were frequently decorated with 'x and 'z to indicate some minute difference from English. Madness.
- Rendello 4y agoSyllabics are an abugida, so they map to the structure of Cree, Oji-Cree, and Ojibwe quite well. In these languages, syllables tend to have a single consonant followed by a single vowel (with some exceptions; this applies less in non-syncope dialects as well). Words that are unwieldy in the Latin script are less daunting in syllabics: anishinaabemowin -> ᐊᓂᐦᔑᓈᐯᒧᐎᓐ makade-mashkikiwaaboo -> ᒪᑲᑌᒪᔥᑭᑭᐙᐴ
- timonoko 4y agoAs is Finnish. And we do well. But the writing system was invented 600 years ago. So those Siberian-Eskimo-etc weird plosives and ingresses slowly disappeared, even if they were originally coded in the script. As an anecdote: if the English had invented the writing system of Finnish, regular Goodnight ie "Hyvää Yötä" would have been written "Hiouaa'aa Io'ootaa". This is why these written Native American languages look so bad.
- mmwelt 5y agoBooks & videos in Cree Plains: https://www.jw.org/en/library/?contentLanguageFilter=crk-x-cys https://www.jw.org/en/library/?contentLanguageFilter=crk-x-c...
- legostormtroopr 5y agoI have noticed an unsettling trend in journalism towards self-referential piece. In this article the author refers to "I", "Me" or "My" over 50 times. Despite being on a news site, yhis isn't a journalistic piece - its a blog post that just serves to allow the author to talk about themselves (framed around some topic). This article could have been about any topic, and the tone wouldn't change - as the bulk talks about the author themselves.
- epilys 5y agoThe article is part of a column called "First person" which invites guest authors to write about their experiences.
- fortyseven 5y agoThought this was about Earthbound at first.