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> Transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria. It's not a "treatment" at all. By definition a treatment (in this context) is: `The use of an agent, procedure

> Transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria. It's not a "treatment" at all. By definition a treatment (in this context) is: `The use of an agent, procedure, or regimen, such as a drug, surgery, or exercise, in an attempt to cure or mitigate a disease, condition, or injury.` Transgenderism is the rejection of any treatments, and an insistence there is no disease, condition, or injury. > On the contrary, it's narcissistic and selfish to think everyone has to be you I never claimed this. That said, if you want to have any useful discussions and dialog there has to be an agreement on things like definitions and facts. Otherwise communication is completely a useless endeavor. > That you are somehow the arbiter of what gender is. Again, never claimed I am somehow solely the arbiter or what gender is. >From what source is your knowledge based? From 1,000's of years of human history and language of people classifying biological sex. Also, just having common sense and the ability to do basic reasoning.

devwastaken 5y ago
If you receive surgery to stop your back from hurting, is that not a treatment? Transgenderism does not reject that there is a problem. It exists exactly because there's a problem it is resolving. I'm going to make a number of assumptions. 1. Your ideas of transgender comes from fabricated ideas you've heard other people say. 2. You've never experienced what working with real humans is like, nor do you care to. 3. You didn't learn this topic before deciding to talk about it. To have an honest conversation you have to do honest work to learn something. From what I see you have chosen to watch a few YouTube videos or sources that align with your pre conceived ideas. Therefore, you are not interested in being convinced. If you're actually interested in learning the topic you're going to have to accept humans are different from you, feel things you don't, and have to live lives you do not. Look into why, be honest, and persue truth over whatever fancy you're having here.
- hitpointdrew 5y ago
  > If you receive surgery to stop your back from hurting, is that not a treatment? Yes that would be treatment. If you look back at the definition of a treatment you will see they are all things you do only to the affected individual. Treatments are directed inward to fix an issue with the self. Transgenderism, at least in its current form, is directed outward demanding everyone else prescribe to an ideology, that is not a treatment, that is tyranny. > I'm going to make a number of assumptions. Feel free to make all the assumptions you want about me. However, all the ones you have listed are 100% false. > To have an honest conversation… Seems to me your idea of an “honest conversation” is simply me siding with your point of view, anything less in your view is somehow “less than honest”. There doesn’t seem to be any room for disagreement in you definition of an “honest conversation”. > From what I see you have chosen to watch a few YouTube videos or sources that align with your pre conceived ideas. Therefore, you are not interested in being convinced. Now you are simply attacking my character and dismissing me rather than trying to dispute my arguments or engage in, as you put it, an honest conversation. > If you're actually interested in learning the topic you're going to have to accept humans are different from you, feel things you don't, and have to live lives you do not. I have never disputed that people can’t feel whatever the hell they want. That’s fine. I don’t expect, or even imagine, that anyones life experiences have been the same as mine. You are totally misrepresenting what I have argued. Look the fundamental problem here is that the world, the universe, exists inside a framework, and we exist in that framework. We can manipulate it to some extent, but we aren’t gods. We cannot rewrite the framework. You don’t have to like the framework, but you can’t fundamentally change it either. For example, someone paralyzed from the neck down may hate that they are paralyzed. They may wish with all their being that they weren’t paralyzed. They may feel that they are in the wrong body and that they should be in an abled body. And no doubt being paralyzed probably causes people to go through emotional hell. But reality isn’t going to change. Treatment is accepting reality, however fucking hard that may be, and playing the best hand you can with the cards that are dealt. Not demanding that you are able bodied, and asking the world to agree that you are able bodied because that is how you feel. And by no means am I ridiculing, or disparaging paralyzed people here. There are paralyzed people that have accomplished amazing things, and have done way more impressive things than I could ever hope to do. But those people didn’t, and never would have, accomplished those things if they refused to accept the cards they were dealt and instead became hyper focused on their disability and how it made them feel. No technology exists, yet anyway, that can change a persons XX chromosomes to XY, or vice versa. You might think that sucks, you might hate it, but it is the framework and reality that exists. If your asking me to denounce that framework (reality), and enter into a delusion, then sorry but my answer is no.
  - devwastaken 5y ago
    "Look the fundamental problem here is that the world, the universe, exists inside a framework, and we exist in that framework. We can manipulate it to some extent, but we aren’t gods. We cannot rewrite the framework. You don’t have to like the framework, but you can’t fundamentally change it either." This is a belief, not a fact. Delusion is where you use mental gymnastics to represent your beliefs as facts. Humans don't fit into frameworks, and you nor I know what those would be even if they do. Psychology, again, is a heavily flawed and infant science that can't treat the overwhelming majority of people. Biology says nothing of how we as humans identify ourselves, it says nothing of sexuality. The deeper you look into biology you discover the core differences are almost entirely hormones. The science of biology is why we can transition our bodies, it does not prevent it. Xy and xx chromosomes don't represent sex either. They're signals of what may be identifiable as man or woman but are not exclusive. When you look at the difference of male to female reproductive organs the core difference is a few genetic switches and hormones at an early stage. 8th grade science class on human body development is not representative of this more complicated reality. Your framework is not based on reality, and you nor anyone else can claim they have a framework on human biology or psychology. That's not how science works. If you want actual answers look towards those that study genetics in relation to body development. We have more questions than answers.
    - hitpointdrew 5y ago
      >This is a belief, not a fact. Delusion is where you use mental gymnastics to represent your beliefs as facts. Humans don't fit into frameworks... If you believe biology, and physics, etc. are not factual frameworks (which they are), then I am afraid there isn't much of a discourse or discussion here. Since we can't seem to agree on fundamental concepts. >Biology says nothing of how we as humans identify ourselves Agreed. And male and female are biological terms, that have absolutely nothing to do with how anyone identifies or feels. > it says nothing of sexuality. Incorrect, biology explains a lot about sex, namely how reproduction fundamentally works. > Xy and xx chromosomes don't represent sex either. Of course they do, that is the literal definition of male and female. >Your framework is not based on reality, and you nor anyone else can claim they have a framework on human biology or psychology. Unfortunately your framework is the one not based in reality. You are operating under a crazy assumption that biology is so complex that no one could possibly understand it, and we have so much more to learn! What you are actually doing is rejecting what science has known for 100's of years, and projecting yourself as some profound "deep" person who is able to see beyond what science has already settled. >We have more questions than answers. Agreed, there are so many unknown things in the universe, and things to discover, which is why its ridiculous to waste time disputing basic biology 101 things like "What is a male, and what is female" when this has been answered for 100's of years.

devwastaken 5y ago

If you receive surgery to stop your back from hurting, is that not a treatment? Transgenderism does not reject that there is a problem. It exists exactly because there's a problem it is resolving. I'm going to make a number of assumptions. 1. Your ideas of transgender comes from fabricated ideas you've heard other people say. 2. You've never experienced what working with real humans is like, nor do you care to. 3. You didn't learn this topic before deciding to talk about it. To have an honest conversation you have to do honest work to learn something. From what I see you have chosen to watch a few YouTube videos or sources that align with your pre conceived ideas. Therefore, you are not interested in being convinced. If you're actually interested in learning the topic you're going to have to accept humans are different from you, feel things you don't, and have to live lives you do not. Look into why, be honest, and persue truth over whatever fancy you're having here.

hitpointdrew 5y ago
> If you receive surgery to stop your back from hurting, is that not a treatment? Yes that would be treatment. If you look back at the definition of a treatment you will see they are all things you do only to the affected individual. Treatments are directed inward to fix an issue with the self. Transgenderism, at least in its current form, is directed outward demanding everyone else prescribe to an ideology, that is not a treatment, that is tyranny. > I'm going to make a number of assumptions. Feel free to make all the assumptions you want about me. However, all the ones you have listed are 100% false. > To have an honest conversation… Seems to me your idea of an “honest conversation” is simply me siding with your point of view, anything less in your view is somehow “less than honest”. There doesn’t seem to be any room for disagreement in you definition of an “honest conversation”. > From what I see you have chosen to watch a few YouTube videos or sources that align with your pre conceived ideas. Therefore, you are not interested in being convinced. Now you are simply attacking my character and dismissing me rather than trying to dispute my arguments or engage in, as you put it, an honest conversation. > If you're actually interested in learning the topic you're going to have to accept humans are different from you, feel things you don't, and have to live lives you do not. I have never disputed that people can’t feel whatever the hell they want. That’s fine. I don’t expect, or even imagine, that anyones life experiences have been the same as mine. You are totally misrepresenting what I have argued. Look the fundamental problem here is that the world, the universe, exists inside a framework, and we exist in that framework. We can manipulate it to some extent, but we aren’t gods. We cannot rewrite the framework. You don’t have to like the framework, but you can’t fundamentally change it either. For example, someone paralyzed from the neck down may hate that they are paralyzed. They may wish with all their being that they weren’t paralyzed. They may feel that they are in the wrong body and that they should be in an abled body. And no doubt being paralyzed probably causes people to go through emotional hell. But reality isn’t going to change. Treatment is accepting reality, however fucking hard that may be, and playing the best hand you can with the cards that are dealt. Not demanding that you are able bodied, and asking the world to agree that you are able bodied because that is how you feel. And by no means am I ridiculing, or disparaging paralyzed people here. There are paralyzed people that have accomplished amazing things, and have done way more impressive things than I could ever hope to do. But those people didn’t, and never would have, accomplished those things if they refused to accept the cards they were dealt and instead became hyper focused on their disability and how it made them feel. No technology exists, yet anyway, that can change a persons XX chromosomes to XY, or vice versa. You might think that sucks, you might hate it, but it is the framework and reality that exists. If your asking me to denounce that framework (reality), and enter into a delusion, then sorry but my answer is no.
- devwastaken 5y ago
  "Look the fundamental problem here is that the world, the universe, exists inside a framework, and we exist in that framework. We can manipulate it to some extent, but we aren’t gods. We cannot rewrite the framework. You don’t have to like the framework, but you can’t fundamentally change it either." This is a belief, not a fact. Delusion is where you use mental gymnastics to represent your beliefs as facts. Humans don't fit into frameworks, and you nor I know what those would be even if they do. Psychology, again, is a heavily flawed and infant science that can't treat the overwhelming majority of people. Biology says nothing of how we as humans identify ourselves, it says nothing of sexuality. The deeper you look into biology you discover the core differences are almost entirely hormones. The science of biology is why we can transition our bodies, it does not prevent it. Xy and xx chromosomes don't represent sex either. They're signals of what may be identifiable as man or woman but are not exclusive. When you look at the difference of male to female reproductive organs the core difference is a few genetic switches and hormones at an early stage. 8th grade science class on human body development is not representative of this more complicated reality. Your framework is not based on reality, and you nor anyone else can claim they have a framework on human biology or psychology. That's not how science works. If you want actual answers look towards those that study genetics in relation to body development. We have more questions than answers.
  - hitpointdrew 5y ago
    >This is a belief, not a fact. Delusion is where you use mental gymnastics to represent your beliefs as facts. Humans don't fit into frameworks... If you believe biology, and physics, etc. are not factual frameworks (which they are), then I am afraid there isn't much of a discourse or discussion here. Since we can't seem to agree on fundamental concepts. >Biology says nothing of how we as humans identify ourselves Agreed. And male and female are biological terms, that have absolutely nothing to do with how anyone identifies or feels. > it says nothing of sexuality. Incorrect, biology explains a lot about sex, namely how reproduction fundamentally works. > Xy and xx chromosomes don't represent sex either. Of course they do, that is the literal definition of male and female. >Your framework is not based on reality, and you nor anyone else can claim they have a framework on human biology or psychology. Unfortunately your framework is the one not based in reality. You are operating under a crazy assumption that biology is so complex that no one could possibly understand it, and we have so much more to learn! What you are actually doing is rejecting what science has known for 100's of years, and projecting yourself as some profound "deep" person who is able to see beyond what science has already settled. >We have more questions than answers. Agreed, there are so many unknown things in the universe, and things to discover, which is why its ridiculous to waste time disputing basic biology 101 things like "What is a male, and what is female" when this has been answered for 100's of years.